Best suggested conversion from HD files to SD DVD

[2Dogs]

I taped some in 24p & some in "easy"mode -60i. Does the 24 bits in the properties mean it was 24p ? Or does that show in the properties?

Hi Mike.

The "24bits" in the clip properties is the colourspace - i.e. how many bytes are used to define the colour of each pixel.

The line that will tell you what kind of video you have is "Video type". For any progressive (frame based) footage, it will presumably show "AVCHD video, Frame Based". (I don't have an AVCHD clip to experiment with right now)

For your HF100's 24p mode, you'd expect to see 24 frames/sec in the "Frame rate:" line of the clip properties, and similarly 30 frames/sec for the 30p mode.

In the 60i mode, you should see "Upper Field First" in the "Video type:" line, and 30 frames/sec in the "Frame rate:" line of your clip properties, since two interlaced fields create one frame of video.

Either way, I figured down converting would still produce a better than normal SD video, but am still trying different angles. I have done short clips in UFF, LFF & frames based and FB still looks the best

The downconverted SD video should be good. Whether it's better than SD video shot with an SD camera will depend on how good that SD camera is, though.

In my experience, frame based always looks best when you're playing it back on a pc. With interlaced, when you freeze frame the video, you can see lots of jaggies, but you don't really see them when the video is playing.

In general, however, I would always make an interlaced DVD for distribution to friends and family. In your case, you should use Upper Field First.

Be sure to try playing your DVD in a set top or standalone DVD player hooked up to a non-progressive TV to be able to get a true comparison between your frame based and upper field first DVD's.

I think that you should be able to sort out your workflow to achieve the kind of results you're after. The HF100 is probably the best consumer AVCHD camera out there at the moment.

You mentioned that you shot some of your daughter's wedding in 24p mode and some in 60i. Yikes! It will create problems if you try to mix the two types in a single project. The 24p mode can have some advantages in low light situations, though the HF100 is reportedly pretty good in low light anyway. One disadvantage with the 24p mode is slower focusing time.

I guess I could play video & capture but that defeats the whole purpose of why I went to flash based memory !

Not sure you can do that, but even if you could, I'd see it as the "nuclear option". I doubt that your problem is that you haven't captured the video (i.e. copied the files from the SC/SDHC card) properly.

Incidentally, what kind of card are you using? The recommendation is only for Class 4 cards, though Class 6 seem to be commonly available. It might be worth trying another brand of card - just to rule out any card-related effects. If you don't already have another one, you'll probably want to buy one anyway, and prices are coming down fast.

(if you're in the US though, you might want to wait for the Black Friday sales which are coming up fairly soon)

[2Dogs]

I was passing my local Best Buy this morning, and had a couple of SD cards with me, so I couldn't resist doing some experimentation.

Although they didn't have an HF100, they did have the similar HF10, which features 16Gb of internal memory.

I wasn't able to get it to record to my SD cards, however - although I could get it to copy some clips to them - but only those shot at a maximum of 12000kbps and less.

There was also an HF11 on display. That has 32Gb of built in memory and has a maximum video data rate of 24000kbps - but again, I could only copy clips shot at 12000kbps and below to my SD cards.

I think it must be that the Canon's require SDHC cards, since I also shot some clips with a Panasonic HDC-SD9. Whereas the Canon footage was 1440 x 1080 (at least in the 12000 kbps mode) the Panasonic was 1920 x 1080, with a maximum video bitrate of 16800kbps. The picture quality of the Panasonic clips couldn't touch the Canons, however, and the mic level seemed really low.

Nobody in the store could confirm my SDHC only theory for the Canons - so perhaps you could with your HF100.

Upon returning home, I made up a short (1 min 35 sec) test project, and tried output to various field orders of DVD compliant mpeg-2.

Playing the mpeg-2 clip on my pc, the frame based probably looked best, but I'd say the upper field first output was virtually indistinguishable from it. (doing completely subjective tests, no resolution or colour charts etc)

The lower field first output was a whole different story. With any movement of the camera or the subject (me!) there was a quite jerky effect.

The AVCHD clips in my project included ones shot in 24p mode and 60i mode - but there didn't seem to be any difference between them in the mpeg-2 output, in any of the field orders I tried and they all looked bad in the lower field first file.

The dimly lit Best Buy store didn't really provide me with a full range of backgrounds to test, but I can't say I noticed any bad jaggies.

What was noticeable is the "tearing" effect when you pan the camera quickly - there are visible blocky artefacts, so for the time being at least, and at the 12000 kbps mode I was able to test, it might be best to try to minimise movement. But then, isn't a video camera used to capture movement? I've not been able to run tests myself, but the HDV camcorders are supposed to handle movement more accurately than the AVCHD ones - but maybe the 24000kbps mode for the HF11 is as good in that respect as the best HDV camcorders.

Whilst it took a while for VS 11.5+ to generate the proxy files, once done the encoding to mpeg-2 took about 80 seconds for the 95 second project on my C2D 1.83Ghz laptop.

I'd read that there were problems with the Panasonic mts files, but didn't experience any with my short project.

The small size and convenience of these flash AVCHD camcorders is incredible though. Makes me almost want to buy one....!

[Ken Berry]

What was noticeable is the "tearing" effect when you pan the camera quickly - there are visible blocky artefacts, so for the time being at least, and at the 12000 kbps mode I was able to test, it might be best to try to minimise movement. But then, isn't a video camera used to capture movement?

I am afraid that the tearing effect -- an eye-jarring sort of shimmer -- seems to be typical to both HDV and AVCHD cameras in horizontal pans. Vertical pans seem to be OK, as do zooms. But horizontal pans seem to bring out the worst, and particularly so if the panning movement is too fast.

And it seems to be a well-known effect. If you watch professionally shot high definition video on a HDTV, you will see that as far as possible, they avoid horizontal pans. If they do pan, it is verrrry slow, and the panning range pretty short. The preference seems to be still or zoom shots, with some natural movement (e.g. wind blowing a tree or plant or a passing car or person) to make it clear it is indeed video...

The effect seems to be the result of the extra lines in high definition video, though I have no idea why it does not affect vertical pans in the same way.

Unfortunately, when down-converting to SD mpeg-2, the damage appears -- at least to me -- to have already been done in the high def original. While the down-conversion obviously reduces the number of lines considerably, the shimmer is still there, and far more noticeable (again, at least to me on my 46" HDTV...) than if I filmed the same scene, with the same pan, using a mini DV camera. While otherwise the quality of the down-converted mpeg-2 is very good (and indeed perhaps a little better than if filmed on an SD camera), this tearing or shimmer effect is a major negative for me.

On the other hand, to distribute my videos to friends and family, I don't really have any alternative. And I should add that all of the friends and family who get copies have either SD CRT TVs or else relatively small sized flat screen HDTVs, so the effect is not particularly noticeable to them.

[mgnielub]

2Dogs,
Thanks for such a lengthy reply (AND all of the testing !). I really have hit the jackpot here on this forum (don't mean to sound so enthusiastic - it's just been really great following all the threads and plethora of knowledge). I'm glad to hear you like the Canon - I did the same thing at CompUsa - bought a card on the spot, took some shots & took them home - it became my "selling point" to the check approver (yes, her). And yes they do only use SDHC cards I bought 3 different brands from Newegg. As far as capturing from the camera, that's my point, I just copy them over to desktop.Class 4 & 6 are suggested. I will try several clips videoed at each,: 24p, 30p & 60i and see what the properties for each say. If you do go looking for HF100, I found Newegg to be the cheapest place (that was reliable !)
Ken, thanks for getting back also. Hope the conference went well. I knew the AVCHD camcorders were less satisfactory in low light. i did know about the panning also so I'm sure to do do slow pans or just turn it off. I like both of yours & 2Dogs suggestion. I'm just going to have to go to someone's house that has a CRT TV. I have tried on my "second" TV which is just an 8" portable - for hurricanes. None of the three (UFF, LFF FB discs look any better on it.) I guess I was just hoping for a mistake I made or a "eureka" moment the would be a quick fix. I don't want to keep going on but I really do appreciate this forum and should have joined years ago, instead of sitting on the sidelines. It's too late for thid project but maybe I'd be better off playing & capturing into computer ? I just really like dthe flash based copy & go. Thinking it would be the better files also.
Mike N

[2Dogs]

Hi Mike,

lots of people are surprised at how active this forum is - and it's been that way as long as I've used it! You rarely see posts go unanswered.

From what little follow-on testing I've done with the AVCHD clips I acquired, I would suggest that, in VS 11.5+ at least but probably also VS12, you turn off smart render. When I used it, it resulted in awful picture quality and out of sync audio, though in fairness my short test project was a combination of 24p and 60i clips from the Canon and 60i from the Panasonic.

Best price I saw recently on the HV30 was $479 - though admittedly it was from one of those online sellers that try to get you to buy over priced accessories to go with it. I actually bought my Panasonic digicam from one such seller, and virtually had to beat it out of them - they really didn't want me to have just the camera at the low price they (briefly!) advertised it for online!

Now I have to buy an SDHC card, since you've confirmed my suspicions about the HF range.

Must clean house now, the pressure from the better half is mounting....