VSX2 Render and project settings

[kaledii]

Hi,
Ok I've been a long time user of both MF and VS and now use HD footage and so was rather pleased when I tried MF7pro with the increased options for project properties of AVCHD and Blu-Ray projects; there are quirks with bit rate/audio type limitations you can set up on MF7, but on the whole you can achieve most bit rate/audio option in the H2.64 HD format.
MF7 pro also fully supports multi-core processors and makes full use of all cores present to render MPEG2 and H2.64 files

I was therefore looking forward to VSX2 pro, to have the same render engine, making use of all cores available and the same flexibility when setting project attributes and/or rendering new files.

Well, I'm rather dissapointed, and please can anyone confirm my same conclusions?
1. When I render a AVCHD file (with SmartRender off) in VSX2, it only makes use of 2 cores on my AMD Phenom X4 (I measured at least 30 % slower render in VSX2 compared to MF7 using same source file and render using same attributes)
2. You cannot (as far as I can tell) set the project attributes to anything other than an AVI or MPEG2 properties! Thus at the outset you cannot create a new Blu-Ray or AVCHD project!
3. Of course in creating a video file you can select from some pre-defined profiles (as you could with VS11.5), however, I'm really dissapointed to find that the 2 Blu-Ray profiles can not be tweaked for bit rate and or Audio properties at all - so you are left with having to use the default bit rate and LPCM audio.
AVCHD offers more flexibilty with bit rate, and offers DD audio, but these 2 profiles are constrained by the choice of resolution (i.e. 720x576 or 1440/1920x1080i) and the inability to choose frame-based rendering.

These observations together really beg the question about what on earth Corel have been doing with their software development, not only do there appear to be different implementation of the rendering engine used across MF7 and VSX2, but also there is no improvement on settings available for HD footage compared to V11.5, and both version are crippled in this regard (even compared to MF7pro).

I'm just glad I bought from the US site where it is cheaper than else where and where I got an additional voucher discount, because I feel all the hardwork put into the rendering flexibility/performance of MF7 has been completely ignored for VSX2!

[Ken Berry]

1. I have a Core 2 Quad 6600, but I find that when rendering AVCHD without SmartRender, all four cores appear to be being used, though two are operating at around 35 -- 38% and the other two around 45 -- 50%. (I reported this here soon after installing X2 as it was one of the first things I had wanted to test.) I am afraid I know nothing about AMX quad core processors, so I have no idea of whether X2 was optimised specifically for Intel processors or not...

As I have also argued elsewhere, I am also not in the least disturbed that they are not being "fully" utilised since a Quad IMHO should have resources left over to run other programs even while processing AVCHD (at least that is what I think). Given that I tend not to run anything else while rendering AVCHD, however, I would agree it could improve overall performance and rendering times if *more* of the cores were utilised, but I suspect I would get worried if usage climbed much closer to 100%.

2. Agreed. And I too find it strange that Corel did not correct this since it was clearly and repeatedly identified as being a significant hole in VS11/11.5+. That being said, it has been a number of years since I have paid much attention to 'project properties'. Oh, I always change my preferences to 'show message when inserting first video clip' and, when using standard definition DV or mpeg-2, I allow the project properties to match. (Another lack in VS11.5+/X2 is that you don't get such a message with HDV or AVCHD, as I am sure you have also already found.) But after doing my edits, regardless of the project properties, I usually tend to select Share > Create Video File > Custom in any case so I can ensure that the render properties are exactly the way I want them.

3. And yes, I agree again. The Blu-Ray and AVCHD presets are too inflexible and limiting, particularly with regard to AVCHD. Again it is something that definitely should have changed in X2 -- namely, the ability to use Make Movie Template Manager to *easily* make templates using your own properties for AVCHD. This will obviously become more and more important as increasing numbers of people buy AVCHD cameras!

That being said, in point of fact you *can* use Make Movie Templates Manager to make your own AVCHD template with your own preferred properties! It just happens to be undocumented (and who knows if Corel is even aware of it?! ) It also only works if you want a template using the same properties exactly as one of your AVCHD files straight out of the camera e.g. using Dolby 5.1 audio. You can of course achieve this anyway by using Share > Create Video File > Same as first clip, as long as your first video clip is in fact an AVCHD clip with your preferred properties. Otherwise, you can do the following.

First, I would make a small sample of an AVCHD video straight out of your camera. 10 seconds will do. Give it a name of your own and store it somewhere where you are unlikely to accidentally erase it. Then you click on Tools > Make Movie Templates Manager, then instead of the normal 'New', you click the bottom button 'ADD'. A new dialogue box appears. In the bottom line, give a logical name to the new template (e.g. AVCHD Dolby 5_1). Then in the line above, click on the Path 'Browse' button (with ' ... ' on it) and browse to where you have stored your sample file. Click on the file so that the path appears in the dialogue box. Click OK to get out of that dialogue box. Check in the original dialogue box to make sure the properties down below match those you are after. Do NOT try to edit those properties as that will just reset everything to default properties. Then close that dialogue box. The new template should now appear down towards the bottom next time you choose Share > Create Video File. Again, you must remember never to try editing that template as it will just reset everything and you will have to start over again.

Now that all being said (again!), you can also, I have found, edit your AVCHD and jump straight to the burning module (Share > Create Disc) rather than first rendering your project to a new AVCHD (or whatever) file. Doing it this way goes against years of my own preferred workflow with standard definition, but it seems to work -- at least for me. This workflow inserts the project file (.vsp) into the burning timeline. Then when you click on the middle of the three icons in the bottom left of the burning screen, you can change the burning properties to whatever you want. It doesn't matter whether or not the 'Do not convert compliant mpeg files' is ticked or not since in this case you have a project file, and not an mpeg-4, in the burning timeline. But you could uncheck this box to be on the safe side.

And that brings us to your general musings about why the VS engine is not more exactly like that of MF7 (which I also have! ) Here I need to make my usual disclaimer that I am not, nor have ever been, an employee of either Ulead or Corel. So the following is purely my own personal speculation.

And the reason why the VS11.5+/X2 burning engine is not closer to, or identical with that of MF6.5+/MF7 is that it was never meant to be so! As far as I am aware, it is a conscious, deliberate marketing choice made originally by Ulead and continued by Corel. If the burning engine in VS was exactly the same as that in MF, who would buy the latter? The two programs are -- and have always been -- meant to complement each other. VS has always been primarily an editing program, and it just happens to have a burning engine tacked on to make it stand-alone. The earlier versions of the burning engine were very basic indeed, and quite inferior to that used in MF. Over the years and versions, that difference has dwindled, but it is still there.

And that is because MF is primarily meant to be an authoring/burning program which can do this side of things better than VS. It has basic editing functions added so that it too can be used as a stand-alone program by those more interested in authoring than editing. But basically, for the dedicated video enthusiasts, the marketing idea is that you use *both* programs -- you do your editing in VS, then open the edited project in MF for authoring. And of course MF will recognise VS project files for that specific reason.

So I am happy that you feel happy that you have X2 at a cheaper price. But I am also happy that you also have MF7, since this is exactly what Corel wants!! A marriage made in marketing heaven!

[kaledii]

Thank you Ken for takining the time to provide your own insights into VSX2.
I have to say that I'm glad I'm not the only one who was looking forward to improvments on previous quirks. The workflows you describe are pretty much the same as I try to work to too.

I must admit that I was not aware of the 'Make Movie Template Manager' until I stumbled upon it yesterday. I'd assumed that it too was actually unable to handle anything other than MPEG2 attributes as I had tried to 'customise' an AVCHD format, which as you say just returns to default properties; I will however try the method you describe. Nonetheless, I'm very frustrated that we cannot simply select 'PAL HDMV' in the media type of the file render attributes and then select between MPEG2 or H2.64 in the video format, which are of course either unavailable or greyed out in VSX2 (but available in MF7)

As for the CPU utilisation, my obsevervations with the AMD X4 are with MF7 the total utilisation across 4 cores is approximately 75 - 90 %, but in VS it only goes up to about 50 - 60 %. Do you find a difference across the these 2 packages yourself?

In creating a AVCHD file in both packages, from the same source file and using the same attributes the file size of both renders was almost idenitcal, which implies to me that the encoder used is the same, only that the internal settings differ in their prioritsation of making use of the CPU(s). In this day of using HD formats and the long time it takes to render such files, I don't understand why Corel would not have set up VSX2 to encode with the same priortisation as MF7 as it takes on my system about 30 % longer in VSX2 compared to MF7, which can be a big difference with H2.64 video.

Finally, I realise the burning engines are different across the 2 products and completely understand why; my reference was to the encoder used not the actual burning engine. Having said that, wouldn't it be great to be able to use the MF7 burning engine directly in VS, instead of the built in one. If I recall, wasn't it possible with Media Studio Pro 8 to use the MF burning engine?

[Ken Berry]

I'll need to get back to you on comparing CPU usage on MF 7 vs. VS X2 as I have never actually looked at that when using MF!

I was also never an MSP user so can't really comment on your last point, except that I thought there was a link, not with MF, but with DVD Workshop, which bit the dust with MSP, more's the pity -- since that was a program I *did* use!...

[Ron P.]

MSP8 or 7 did not have a burning engine, or module. A simple version of MF was included with them. In fact they included DVD MF4, which was far older then what was current. You needed to create a video file, then use a DVD authoring program to burn your discs. Whereas with VS, as Ken stated includes a burning engine, though not quite up to what DVD_MF is..

[lion2008]

3. And yes, I agree again. The Blu-Ray and AVCHD presets are too inflexible and limiting, particularly with regard to AVCHD. Again it is something that definitely should have changed in X2 -- namely, the ability to use Make Movie Template Manager to *easily* make templates using your own properties for AVCHD. This will obviously become more and more important as increasing numbers of people buy AVCHD cameras!

That being said, in point of fact you *can* use Make Movie Templates Manager to make your own AVCHD template with your own preferred properties! It just happens to be undocumented (and who knows if Corel is even aware of it?! ) It also only works if you want a template using the same properties exactly as one of your AVCHD files straight out of the camera e.g. using Dolby 5.1 audio. You can of course achieve this anyway by using Share > Create Video File > Same as first clip, as long as your first video clip is in fact an AVCHD clip with your preferred properties. Otherwise, you can do the following.

First, I would make a small sample of an AVCHD video straight out of your camera. 10 seconds will do. Give it a name of your own and store it somewhere where you are unlikely to accidentally erase it. Then you click on Tools > Make Movie Templates Manager, then instead of the normal 'New', you click the bottom button 'ADD'. A new dialogue box appears. In the bottom line, give a logical name to the new template (e.g. AVCHD Dolby 5_1). Then in the line above, click on the Path 'Browse' button (with ' ... ' on it) and browse to where you have stored your sample file. Click on the file so that the path appears in the dialogue box. Click OK to get out of that dialogue box. Check in the original dialogue box to make sure the properties down below match those you are after. Do NOT try to edit those properties as that will just reset everything to default properties. Then close that dialogue box. The new template should now appear down towards the bottom next time you choose Share > Create Video File. Again, you must remember never to try editing that template as it will just reset everything and you will have to start over again.

:

I can fully confirm that, and it is even more true when in comes to HD-authoring with VSx2 under the "share" section.

1. As the templates for "Create a video file" or "create a dvd" are VERY limited to the most common HD-resolutions, you will really need the workarounds as described above to handle other HD-resolutions like progressive frame rates. From my experience, the way to "add" a template in the Make Movies Template Manager is the best way to go, while the "same as first clip"-option in the "create a video file"-list sometimes crashes.

2. As long as you are exporting to a HD-MPEG2-compression for the video, you might go for the "custom" under "create a video file" as well and choose "MPEG 2 file" and then under the options "Compression - MPEG2" and "General" in order to get other resolutions like 720p60 or 1080p30 (frame-based). But this will apparently not work when it comes to the better h.264-video-compression as neither the "custom"-section nor the "AVCHD"-section under the "create a video file" will allow you to change to anything else than 1080i60 even if you are using the "options", and the same goes for the "create disc - AVCHD-project settings - change MPEG settings - customize". But the ULEAD h.264-encoder can actually handle more resolutions and progressive frame rates if you apply the "add"-trick in the Make Movies Template Manager: Both 720p60 and 1080p24 are accepted in h.264 !! You are even able to adjust audio and bitrate for every project by clicking on "options" after "create a video file" and "(name of your template)".

3. To this extent, the burning sections in VSx2 and MF6+(with HD-Plugin) are the same when handling h.264-HD-files: In both programms, I was able to burn a h.264-compressed-HD-video both for Blu-Ray and for AVCHD either in 1080i60 or in 720p60 with the same project settings (important to check the box for "do not convert compliant MPEG files" !!), I could create a folder for a Blu-Ray (or even a HD-DVD) using h.264-compression without re-encoding for a h.264-video in 720p60. So by using VSx2 or MF6+ (or MF7), you will have a perfect low-cost-workflow with smart rendering and burning all in h.264-compression if your footage is AVCHD/h.264-720p60 (for instance the new Panasonic AG-HMC 150 and I anticipate others to come because 1080i60 is not the best solution for fast-moving-objects).

[sjj1805]

......

3. And yes, I agree again. The Blu-Ray and AVCHD presets are too inflexible and limiting, particularly with regard to AVCHD. Again it is something that definitely should have changed in X2 -- namely, the ability to use Make Movie Template Manager to *easily* make templates using your own properties for AVCHD. This will obviously become more and more important as increasing numbers of people buy AVCHD cameras!

That being said, in point of fact you *can* use Make Movie Templates Manager to make your own AVCHD template with your own preferred properties! It just happens to be undocumented (and who knows if Corel is even aware of it?! ) It also only works if you want a template using the same properties exactly as one of your AVCHD files straight out of the camera e.g. using Dolby 5.1 audio. You can of course achieve this anyway by using Share > Create Video File > Same as first clip, as long as your first video clip is in fact an AVCHD clip with your preferred properties. Otherwise, you can do the following.

First, I would make a small sample of an AVCHD video straight out of your camera. 10 seconds will do. Give it a name of your own and store it somewhere where you are unlikely to accidentally erase it. Then you click on Tools > Make Movie Templates Manager, then instead of the normal 'New', you click the bottom button 'ADD'. A new dialogue box appears. In the bottom line, give a logical name to the new template (e.g. AVCHD Dolby 5_1). Then in the line above, click on the Path 'Browse' button (with ' ... ' on it) and browse to where you have stored your sample file. Click on the file so that the path appears in the dialogue box. Click OK to get out of that dialogue box. Check in the original dialogue box to make sure the properties down below match those you are after. Do NOT try to edit those properties as that will just reset everything to default properties. Then close that dialogue box. The new template should now appear down towards the bottom next time you choose Share > Create Video File. Again, you must remember never to try editing that template as it will just reset everything and you will have to start over again.
.........:

Once you have used a sample video file to create the template you can in fact delete that sample video.

[Ken Berry]

Are you sure about that Steve? It is a path-dependent template and I would have thought that one the path is no longer valid, the template would 'collapse'...

[sjj1805]

Yes - absolutely sure.
In fact I have shared some templates created by using that very same method and installed them onto my other computers that way.

Making and Sharing VideoStudio Movie Templates