X2 AVCHD SmartRender problems

Post by **Ken Berry** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 10:31 pm

Michal -- I too have downloaded your files and have experimented with them on both X2 and VS11.5+ in much the same way as dalemccl and SPSP1.

First, I tried playing the individual files in both Clip and Project mode. It was jerky in both, but worse in Project mode, with the video even stopping for a second or two. That was the same in both X2 and 11.5+. I did not use SmartProxy.

I then put several copies of each in the timeline and separated them with crossfade transitions. I then rendered to a new AVCHD, using the same properties as the original, with SmartRender enabled. The new file was also jerky in playback on both X2 and 11.5+.

When played on both WinDVD and PowerDVD, playback was smooth, but there was a noticeable anomaly just after each cross fade, which resembles exactly what you described.

I then rendered witout SmartRender. That took about 4 times longer than the other render. Again, it was jerky in VS, but smooth in WinDVD and PowerDVD, but the anomaly was still there. And that was for both X2 and 11.5+.

So I am reluctantly coming around to agree with you that there is a bug in the AVCHD codec or process used by Video Studio.

dalemccl · Post by **dalemccl** » Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:12 pm

Ken, in addition to the anomaly you verified, I find the same thing happens when a title from the library is super-imposed over the video (like a sub-title). I have only tried it with titles that automatically fade in and out, but at the end of the title fading out, there is a blip in the video, the same as happens at the end of transtions.

I posted this problem a few days ago in another thread and one other user verified the problem. I have only tried it with Smart Render off, so Smart Render is not the problem with the title problem.

erdna · Post by **erdna** » Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:50 am

dalemccl wrote:Ken, in addition to the anomaly you verified, I find the same thing happens when a title from the library is super-imposed over the video (like a sub-title). I have only tried it with titles that automatically fade in and out, but at the end of the title fading out, there is a blip in the video, the same as happens at the end of transtions.

I posted this problem a few days ago in another thread and one other user verified the problem. I have only tried it with Smart Render off, so Smart Render is not the problem with the title problem.

Agree, same blips here with titles

Efenstor · Post by **Efenstor** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:13 pm

Ken Berry wrote:It was jerky in both, but worse in Project mode, with the video even stopping for a second or two.

So it should be smooth??? It's just about that my Core Quad Q9300 with 2.5 GHz turns to be enough for non-nagging editing of AVCHD since Ken got Q6600 with 2.4 GHz.

SPSP1 · Post by **SPSP1** » Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:08 pm

Efenstor wrote:
Ken Berry wrote:It was jerky in both, but worse in Project mode, with the video even stopping for a second or two.
So it should be smooth??? It's just about that my Core Quad Q9300 with 2.5 GHz turns to be enough for non-nagging editing of AVCHD since Ken got Q6600 with 2.4 GHz.

The playback of AVCHD is not dependent only to the CPU but the GPU with drivers and ActiveX modules too (codecs, filters and others). The 45nm Core2Quad is a big overclocking thing. With proper cooler it has temperature below 40 degrees while its hard working.

michal_h · Post by **michal_h** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 12:17 pm

I tried to work with Adobe Premiere Elements 7, output (h264, 1920x1080@50i) has no problem as I've described with CVSX2 but unfortunately APE7 has no smart render

erdna · Post by **erdna** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 1:10 pm

My playback experience ( from the timeline)with VS12 and AVCHD files, is as follows
Playbck in clipmode: jerky, with or without smart proxy.
Playback in project mode with smart proxy enabled: smooth (reduced resolution). It is inportant to notice that smart proxy has to be enabled BEFORE putting files on the timeline (so : new project>prefs>enable smart proxy), otherwise setting smart proxy during the project keeps jerky playback even in preview mode.
Playback with PowerDVD8 is perfect ( high res and smooth) appart from the blips at crossofers/titles with rendered files.

Sektionschef · Post by **Sektionschef** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:24 pm

michal_h wrote:I tried to work with Adobe Premiere Elements 7, output (h264, 1920x1080@50i) has no problem as I've described with CVSX2 but unfortunately APE7 has no smart render

Try Sony Vegas. According to other users its smartrenderer should work fine.
Regards
Sektionschef

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:46 pm

That may be the case with Vegas and perhaps even Sony Movie Studio Platinum -- though as I understand it, if you are making AVCHD hybrid discs with both those programs, you can't (yet?) make a menu for the disc... Just shows nothing is perfect!

But I guess a work-around could be to process your AVCHD in Sony, then import the final, hopefully blip-less edited AVCHD to X2 for burning to hybrid disc *with* menu!

bankroot · Post by **bankroot** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 7:17 am

Ken Berry wrote: But I guess a work-around could be to process your AVCHD in Sony, then import the final, hopefully blip-less edited AVCHD to X2 for burning to hybrid disc *with* menu!

I do the same.
The common workaround is to make cut/trimming clips in bundled software (HD Writer, PMP or Pixela - no additional cost) and after this text, music, audio and menu can be done.

michal_h · Post by **michal_h** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:51 am

Sektionschef wrote:
michal_h wrote:I tried to work with Adobe Premiere Elements 7, output (h264, 1920x1080@50i) has no problem as I've described with CVSX2 but unfortunately APE7 has no smart render
Try Sony Vegas. According to other users its smartrenderer should work fine.
Regards
Sektionschef

I tried Sony Vegas Pro 8.0c, it works with my avchd files, output is without problems but NO smart render for my files. According to help smart render is possible only for HDV 1080i and XDCAM

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:38 am

I think -- though I don't know for certain -- that you are going to find that across the board for some time. The format is already a difficult and demanding one. The extra ability to be able to SmartRender it -- in whichever program -- is probably just not possible for a while yet... Mind you, apart from the time factor (which does not worry me personally, but I know is a big consideration for some users), I don't think there is any major problem insofar as loss of quality is concerned through a second render. Even with standard definition mpeg-2, if the higher quality properties are maintained two and probably three re-renders is not going to produce loss of quality which is really detectable to the naked eye. The same goes in spades for high definition formats.

Sektionschef · Post by **Sektionschef** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:06 pm

Ken Berry wrote:Even with standard definition mpeg-2, if the higher quality properties are maintained two and probably three re-renders is not going to produce loss of quality which is really detectable to the naked eye. The same goes in spades for high definition formats.

Ken, I don't agree to that. Even if the source material is high quality mpeg2 then I can clearly see the quality loss after the first reencoding process.
I made a lot of tests using different mpeg2 encoders like TMPGEnc or CCE so I have also used high quality encoders.
However, smartrendering can only work on portions of the source material that haven't got applied with any effects(like color correction, denoise, deshake, etc) or masks/overlays/titels/transitions. Therefore if one uses lots of these effects he does not worry about whether smartrender has a bug in VS or not.
Regards
Sektionschef

SPSP1 · Post by **SPSP1** » Tue Oct 14, 2008 12:13 pm

Sektionschef wrote:
Ken Berry wrote:Even with standard definition mpeg-2, if the higher quality properties are maintained two and probably three re-renders is not going to produce loss of quality which is really detectable to the naked eye. The same goes in spades for high definition formats.
Ken, I don't agree to that. Even if the source material is high quality mpeg2 then I can clearly see the quality loss after the first reencoding process.
I made a lot of tests using different mpeg2 encoders like TMPGEnc or CCE so I have also used high quality encoders.
However, smartrendering can only work on portions of the source material that haven't got applied with any effects(like color correction, denoise, deshake, etc) or masks/overlays/titels/transitions. Therefore if one uses lots of these effects he does not worry about whether smartrender has a bug in VS or not.
Regards
Sektionschef

...but even without the smartrender there is a smaller bug - a little flicking at the end of the rerecorded part (titles mixing or transition).

Sektionschef · Post by **Sektionschef** » Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:27 am

Can anybody please confirm whether this problem also exists for HDV or just for AVCHD?
Regards
Sektionschef