Downconverting HD to standard DVD

[Calstvns]

I have an HD camcorder, Sony HC3, and a computer able to handle anything, and a HD TV. However, I do not have a blue-ray or HD player, and most of the people I make disks for also need just regular DVDs.

So my regular process involves downconverting my HD movies to show on a regular DVD-R, and I've found at least three places in the flow at which the downconverting can take place. Which is best?

1) The first place is coming out of the camcorder. With the i-link cable feature turned on, the signal can be converted out of my camera to DV; 2) But if the movie is captured in HD (1440 x 1080, MPEG2, 16:9) then the next place to downconvert is in burning the MPEG movie file; 3) Finally, if I have not downconverted yet, and the MPEG file is still with it's original HD properties, the last place to do it is in the burn-to-disk step.

So far, as I've tinkered with the options, downconvert option 3 did not work well, a lot of resolution was lost. The other two places were similar, pretty good quality, though I detected that downconvert place #2 seemed a bit better.

I wondered if any on this board had some sage advice about this; perhaps I'm missing other things that would help me. Thanks so much!

[Ken Berry]

I have a similar HDV camera in the Canon range (the HV20). First, you are going to have to accept that no home-made video DVD, even using the highest quality settings, is going to look wonderful on a HDTV, and the bigger the screen, the worse it will look. I am afraid that is just the nature of the beast, though if your DVD player has upscaling, it will look a bit better.

With my own set-up, I don't capture direct to DV as I edit and actually produce for playback videos in their original HDV format, or convert them to AVCHD hybrid discs for playback on my Sony PlayStation 3 (which has good upscaling for standard definition discs, by the way). So capturing to DV would be a waste of time for me.

Personally, I use your option 2 when burning SD DVDs. This is because (1) none of my individual projects ever runs much more than about 20 minutes, so would, even at the best settings, use only a third of a DVD if I used your option 3; and (2) because I can control the exact properties I want (i.e. the highest quality settings) by using Share > Create Video File > Custom. Apart from any of the other settings, here it is important to make sure you use Upper Field First, because I find the default VS settings are usually either Frame Based or Lower Field first, regardless of what I might have set in File > Preferences as the default.

Using your option 3, you would need to look at the burn properties in the second of the three icons in the bottom left of the burning screen to ensure you have the highest SD settings AND the right Field Order (UFF) set.

[Calstvns]

Thanks, Ken. I realize that downconverted HD to SD is less than HD. But I still have a better picture than before I had the HD cam at all. I guess having the quality in the original source makes for at least a better end product than if I didn't start with HD at all. Still, I realize that the best will not be achieved until I get a player that will drive an HD disk.

But, please understand, all the people who get my disks (parents of kids in the school plays) have regular DVD players, maybe hooked up to HDTV, but then still they need a downconverted disk like what I've been describing.

And your post has definitely helped! You have increased my confidence, in that you endorsed what I called "option 2" in my original post, which is the options that seemed to bring the best result. Thanks very much!

[Ken Berry]

Don't get me wrong either... ALL of my friends and family who receive my masterpieces, only have standard definition players, so I too have to produce all of my projects in standard definition as well. So I know exactly what you are going through...

But at least at home, I have my PS3 which can not only play AVCHD discs, but can play my edited HDV files as well, either on a USB stick, an external hard drive or a data DVD with the HDV file burned as an archive file. And with the PS3 networked to my 46" HDTV, I can play ALL my media, HD and SD, plus photos and music, direct from computer to HDTV. It's fantastic, but of course just makes SD DVDs look all the worse!

[Calstvns]

Ah, so indeed I want to be in the position you're in ... able to watch at home in HD quality, but giving my projects to others in friendly SD disks.

Another couple of questions for you:

If I don't want to buy a PlayStation to mimic your solution for my HD viewing at home, what will be the eventual consumer solution for us? Now that Blu-Ray has won the contest, will we be buying BR burners and players to see our stuff? (I hear they're costly now, maybe will come down).

And when you capture, edit and create a file in HD (for playing at home), are your properties consistent at each step? And what are those properties? (Are they: MPEG-2, 24 bit, 1440x1080, 16:9, VBR 25mbps, etc?)

Many thanks --- your input will help me ramp back up to where I need to be!

[Ken Berry]

Yes, I am afraid we are all going to have to buy Blu-Ray burners (though some new computers are already being shipped with them, or at least players), and stand-alone Blu-Ray players. The PS3 is in fact a Blu-Ray player and a very good one, and it also comes with an upscaler and can play the hybrid AVCHD discs I mentioned (which not all current stand-alone Blu-Ray players can do). But until such time as the price of Blu-Ray discs falls considerably from their currently level of around $25 for the cheapest here in Australia, I won't be considering the Blu-Ray burner for quite some time. Since I can buy my standard DVD blanks for 25 cents each, the AVCHD hybrid disc option will be fine -- particularly since my PS3 gives me so many other options into the bargain!

And yes, I maintain the same properties throughout a project using my HDV files, including the mpeg layer 2 audio which you did not list. It's easy and provides excellent results if you don't change anything from the original. The only time I have to change them is when I burn an AVCHD hybrid disc since obviously the HDV has to be converted to AVCHD. But there, I convert using the highest quality AVCHD settings, which include upsizing the HDV frame size to 1920 x 1080, and using a high AVCHD bitrate of 17 or 18 Mbps. The latter allows me to burn a 21 minute project to a single layer DVD in excellent high definition format as a hybrid disc.

[Calstvns]

Ken, AVCHD disks ... this is a new wrinkle for me. What equipment can play these disks? Where can I get a quick education on what that is?

I take it that they use standard DVD disks but produce an HD picture? Do I understand you correctly? And can my regular DVD player play such a disk?

Thanks!

[Ken Berry]

Yes -- AVCHD in high definition splendour burned in a Blu-Ray structure but on a standard definition DVD. Unfortunately, they cannot be played on a standard DVD player. Only on Blu-Ray players which are moreover rated to play such hybrid discs. Not all of them are so rated, apparently, though the PS3 is, thank goodness.

[Calstvns]

Wow, this gives me ideas. Buy a PlayStation, perhaps? Actually... VS allows me to create an HD recording and record it back onto a tape in my Sony camcorder. Using my cam as a HD-VCR, using composite jacks into the back of my HDTV, would give me a HD picture on my screen, no?

I use my cam as a HD - VCR now anyway, when the family gets back from a trip, we play the raw footage back from the camcorder into the TV set, a nice HD picture. It seems I could do the same with my projects recorded back on to a tape.

[Ken Berry]

I had assumed you had already tried that as it is the most obvious route, especially for a camera that uses a mini DV tape. And I would check to see if the HC3 has a HDMI connection -- I think it may, and my HV20 certainly does. You would need to buy a HDMI cable -- shop around, as some are ridiculously expensive. I bought mine on-line for $14 each, delivered in 2 days, when the local electronics shops wanted to charge me $85!

But a HDMI connection is what you want when connecting in to a HDTV. Your HDTV should have at least one, and up to 3 or even 4 HDMI jacks. You will get seamless, high quality playback that way, whereas the composite connections will considerably lower the quality. Think of HDMI as being the HDTV equivalent of Firewire!

The only thing to remember is that your project must be edited in its native HDV format and then processed back in its original transport stream in order for the camera to be able to 'see' it when you export it back. But this is easy in VS 10+ and 11+/11.5+. You edit your project, then choose Share > HDV Recording. You will be asked to give the new export file a name, then the project will be converted to the right format. Make sure you have your camera connected via Firewire, turned to the PLAY position and a fresh DV cassette in it. After the project is converted, the export will then begin automatically. This process thus serves the double purpose of not only getting your edited project back to the camera, but also producing a HDV mpeg-2 of the project which you can store against the day you *can* afford a Blu-Ray burner and the discs.

[Calstvns]

Your answers are helpful in the extreme. One more question, then I'm off to bed! (After midnight in California).

When downconverting to SD for the disks I hand out to all my standard DVD folks, I have a choice of VBR. One document I have says to set it at 8000, another tutorial suggests that it can go to 9800. (This latter piece of advice was made cautiously, the writer said "some DVD players might struggle with that, and if so, move it down to 8000).

What say you about standard def DVD variable bit rate?

[Ken Berry]

The absolute maximum combined bitrate allowed under the international DVD standard (I am not kidding!) is 10,000 kbps for both video AND audio. So using a video bitrate of 9800 allows only an audio bitrate of 200 kbps. Even using one of the compressed audio formats like Dolby dual channel stereo (256 kbps for good quality) or mpeg layer 2 (228 kbps for good quality), you would be pushing it.

And the person who comments you were quoting cautiously was right. Many (most?) stand alone DVD players can start acting up with video bitrates much over 8000 kbps. That bitrate in any case gives excellent quality standard definition, and is widely regarded as the optimum top quality for SD video.

[Gisela Richter]

[ First, you are going to have to accept that no home-made video DVD, even using the highest quality settings, is going to look wonderful on a HDTV, and the bigger the screen, the worse it will look. I am afraid that is just the nature of the beast, though if your DVD player has upscaling, it will look a bit better.

For anyone planning to buy an HDTV this is a most important point. We all have a lot of SD disks and video files that we would like to be able to enjoy, so if a 1080p TV cannot handle SD correctly we are in for a big disappointment. There is big discussion on this point here in Europe and some experts recommend buying a 720p TV rather than 1080p because the lower resolution model will still give very satisfactory HD films and will handle SD better. It's a reasonable compromise. What do you think?

As for investing in a playstation, it seems to me a multimedia external hard drive would enable you to show your HD videos on the HDTV at far less cost. Unless you want the playstation for other reasons.

[Black Lab]

For anyone planning to buy an HDTV this is a most important point. We all have a lot of SD disks and video files that we would like to be able to enjoy, so if a 1080p TV cannot handle SD correctly we are in for a big disappointment.

It's not that SD is handled incorrectly, it's just that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, as they say.

I have a 1080p TV, and my SD videos don't look that bad. (i'm talking the quality, not the editing )

[Gisela Richter]

quote:
I have a 1080p TV, and my SD videos don't look that bad. (i'm talking the quality, not the editing :wink: :lol: )[/quote]

Not very assuring, Black Lab, you buy an expensive HDTV and your DVD's "don't look that bad". On the French forums some say their SD videos look definitely worse on the HDTV than on their old TV. Apart from our own HD videos how much HD television is available in USA or Australia etc.? Here in Europe so far very little, and you have to pay extra for it. In the shops SDTV sets are few and far between, they're pushing HD with promises of a new future where all the TV programmes will be HD. In my opinion it will be years before this arrives. Perusing some older contributions from Steve about HD I find his remarks very wise and reasonable. He has not thrown himself into HD. I have just bought a Canon HV20 at a ridiculous sale price because it has been replaced by the HV 30 which is exactly the same! But the editing programmes are not yet quite up to it, so I content myself with filming in HD and editing in SD.