Settings for downcoverting HD to standard DVD

Sue Whitham · Post by **Sue Whitham** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:46 am

I'm able to edit High Def footage from two different camcorders ( .tod and .mts files), and I'm improving all the time, thanks partly to this excellent forum.
However, I don't yet have a High Def burner or player, so I'm still needing to put my finished films on standard DVD's.
I've looked at J.C. Hunter's tutorial for doing this in VS 10+ and presumably, it's the same for VS11.5+.
I'd like to confiirm the Share Step settings;
VBR at 9800 is recommended for the best picture, but apparently some DVD players have difficulty with that so the next best is 8000.
Is this OK, since the source and the edited files are either VBR 28000 (384 kbps audio) or VBR 16000 (256 kbps audio)?
Or will it work just as well if I create a video file of the project by simply selecting Create Video File - PAL DVD, then burn the resulting video file to a standard DVD disc?
Any suggestions would be welcome.
SW.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:35 pm

Hi

First of all i do not use HD.

I think HD uses Upper Field order whereas the Pal-DVD template uses Lower.
Not a good idea to change the field order

Use make movie manager to create your own template from the HD file, using the ADD function. (thats if it works with HD.) Before closing, Edit the template changing the frame size to 720 x 576 and the bit rate to 8000.

It should work.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Fri Aug 22, 2008 9:49 pm

Looking at the abbreviated properties you give for the two types of file, the .tod ones are clearly high def mpeg-2, but the .mts ones appear as though they might be avchd/mpeg-4. If so they are notoriously difficult to do anything with. So with them in particular, you will definitely need to convert them to standard def mpeg-2, using both Upper Field First, and a max bitrate of 8000 kbps.

Sue Whitham · Post by **Sue Whitham** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:11 am

I am making my film in short "chapters" for convenience and joining them before final output - this is how I have created longish projects in the past. (Though that was before I went High Def)
Some chapters contain footage from the two diffrent cameras : .tod from the JVC (mpeg-2) and .mts (PAL HDMV) from the Canon.
I have been editing with the properties set to mpeg-2 on the compression tab, so presumably VS is rendering all clips to that format as I proceed.
So I am ending up with several chapters already in mpeg-2 format.
Can I then place these files on the timeline and render them all into one video file?
Then I could burn the complete film to standard DVD.
What settings would I need for the burn? Presumably 8000 kbps would still be the Video data rate?
SW

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 1:22 pm

Can you right click on one of the .mts files in the timeline or in the library pane and copy ALL its properties here please.

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Sat Aug 23, 2008 8:36 pm

What settings would I need for the burn? Presumably 8000 kbps would still be the Video data rate?

My 2 cents:
First, under VS "Preferences" make sure "Resampling Quality" = BEST

FrameSize = 720x576
FrameRate = 25
Aspect Ratio = 16:9
Fielding = Upper_Field_First
Compression/Quality = 100%
Video_Bit_Rate = Variable = 8000 - 9800 (Your choice) I have no problems using 9000 or higher.
Audio = Dolby 5.1@384/448kbs

One Pass ( I don't recommend using 2 pass encoding because your source(s) is highly compressed)

Also I wouldn't mix your h264 with the hd-mpeg2 videos on the timeline. First convert the H264 to hd-mpeg2 or standard dvd mpeg.

When you work on the timeline for editing only use hd-mpeg2 or sd-mpeg2 for editing purposes, make sure your "Project Settings" = the source videos.
Then when your ready to produce a new video file "Share -> Create Video File -> Same_As Project Settings.
In the "Options" box you have the option of turning "Smartrender" ON/OFF

Experience is your best teacher (you already have found that out). You may experience problems with the MTS/H264 videos with smartrender enabled. Yet, using hd-mpeg2 video the smartrender feature works very well. So mixing 2 different formats on the same timeline can be hard to work with. That's why I would recommend converting them first to a common format before editing them. This way all the videos on the timeline have the same video/audio properties.

Sue Whitham · Post by **Sue Whitham** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 11:05 am

Thanks etech, I'll batch convert the .mts files to mpeg-2 before editing.
Would you just confirm to me what you mean by One Pass?

Ken - you asked me to post the .mts file properties;

PAL HDMV
H.264 video
Upper Field First
24 bits 1440x1080 16:9
25 fps
VBR 16000
Dolby Digital Audio
48000 Hz
256 kbps

A note of caution for anyone following this thread - think very carefully before you rush into HD. I was doing a fabulous job with a mini DV camcorder and VS10.
Once my husband invested in a High Def camcorder (he now has two in different formats as you see from my posts) I purchased VS11.5plus, a new quad core processor and full HD 24" wide screen monitor, so my learning curve has not been cheap!
Until I spend more money on Blueray burner and player, I won't be able to see the fruits of my labour at their best.

In the meantime, I'll continue to seek excellent advice from you guys.
Sue W.

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Sun Aug 24, 2008 7:11 pm

Sue,
If it helps this is how I work with HDV.
I make a HDV.Template and then mark it as ¡§READ-ONLY¡¨

The specs you just posted for the H264 codec are equal to a HDV 25,000kbs Mpeg2 video file.
Since your other HD cam is a HDV then I would suggest to convert your H264 to Standard HDV.

Start VS and stay will an empty timeline:
Goto Preferences (F6 HotKey) and make ¡§Re-sampling Quality = BEST¡¨

Then change your ¡§Project Settings¡¨ to standard HDV:
Project Settings <ALT+ENTER> or via VS Menus

First goto the ¡§Compression Tab¡¨ and change the top drop-down box to ¡§MPEG2¡¨.
This activates the General tab to provide the High Definition Frame Sizes.

Compression Tab:
Format = MPEG2
Quality = 100%
Vidio_Bit_Rate = Constant 25,000kbs
(Single Pass)
Audio:
Mpeg Audio = Stereo
Data Rate = 384kbs

General Tab:
Frame_Size = 1440x1080
Fielding = Upper_Field_First
Aspect Ratio = 16:9
FrameRate = 25.00
¡§Non-Square Pixel Rendering¡¨ = ON

Once the ¡§Project Settings¡¨ are setup for standard HDV (as above) then exit
the ¡§Project Settings¡¨ screen & with an empty timeline ¡§Save the VS Project¡¨.
I use the name HDV_Template.vsp
Now, wherever you saved this project file use windows explorer and navigate to it, highlight the HDV_Template.vsp file and Right_Click on it and select ¡§Properties¡¨.
At the bottom of the ¡§Properties¡¨ screen check ON the ¡§Read-Only¡¨ checkbox.
Exit the properties screen, right_click on the HDV_Template.vsp file and drag it to your desktop, when you let up on the right mouse key select ¡§Create Shortcut¡¨.

Now whenever you start a HDV project just click on that shortcut on your desktop.
This will start a default HDV project in VS.

After you load video files into the timeline when you goto Save the project <CTRL+S> (HotKey) then VS will prompt you for a new filename because the existing file is ¡§Read-Only¡¨.

Just a nice tool to use.

You should also create a custom template for HDV.
Customized templates will be displayed at the bottom of the listing when you goto ¡§Share -> Create Video File -> <Your custom template will be listed at the bottom>

Hope this helps

Sue Whitham · Post by **Sue Whitham** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:16 am

Thanks etech.
Doing it this way, presumably I don't need to use Batch Convert?
To clarify the differences in the two camcorders:

CANON JVC

.mts .tod
PAL HDMV PAL HDMV
H.264 Mpeg-2
Upper Field First Upper field First
24 bit 24 bit
1440x1080 1920x1080
16.9 16.9
25 fps 25 fps
VBR 16000 VBR 28000
Dolby Digital Mpeg Layer 2
48000Hz 48000 Hz
256 kbps 384 kbps

For the future, I can set the JVC on 1440x1080 which gives a constant bit rate 27000 mbps which might get a closer match, but footage already filmed is at 1920x1080 as above. (And how much of a problem are the differing sound properties?)
The HDV template you describe uses Constant bit rate.
Just to throw another spanner in the works, I'm likely to include some older footage from the MiniDV camera in this project. How does that affect things? Mini DV is Lower Field first.
Sue W.

Sue Whitham · Post by **Sue Whitham** » Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:25 am

Blimey!
I listed camcorder properties as two seperate columns, but they amalgamated when I submitted the post.
Here they are again;

CANON

.mts
PAL HDMV
H.264
Upper Field First
24 bit
1440x1080
16.9
25 fps
VBR 16000
Dolby Digital
48000Hz
256 kbps

JVC

.tod
PAL HDMV
Mpeg-2
Upper Field First
24 bit
1920x1080
16.9
25 fps
VBR 28000
Mpeg Layer 2
48000 Hz
383 kbps

Sue Whitham · Post by **Sue Whitham** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:07 am

This thread seems to have dried up, but I've been experimenting with all the good advice so far.
However, I'm still not clear on the differences between Variable Bit Rate and Constant Bit Rate, and when they should be used.
Also on my question of using Mini DV footage in the same project as .tod and .mts files (Mini DV being Lower Field First, the others Upper Field First)
SW

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:57 am

I am sure I have explained this somewhere else but could not find it myself!
Here is a brief (simple) explanation.

Constant bit rate.
The audio/video is rendered at the same rate for the entire duration of the video. Hence the file size might be a bit on the large side but it will render quite quickly. The higher the bit rate the better the quality but the larger the file size.

Variable Bit rate.
Where there is a lot of movement in the video more bit rates are required to record the information. Where there is little or no movement in the video less bit rates are required. Overall the file size will be smaller due to the savings made where less bits were required. This means you get a smaller file size and so can fit more onto that DVD disc. It does however take the computer longer to render the video because it has to work out where more/less bits are required throughout the video.

Variable Bit rate comes in "Single Pass", "Two Pass" and even "Multi-Pass"
Single pass - the program creates the video straight away guessing what bit rates are required 'on the fly.'

Two Pass - the program reads through the video once (sort of like a preview) and then on the second pass it creates the video. Obviously this takes twice as long as single pass but you get better quality (than single pass).

Multi-Pass - the program will read through the video several times until it eventually produces the completed video. Quality will be even better (than single pass) but obviously takes a lot longer again.

When to use Variable Bit rates.
You use variable bit rates when you are having problems fitting it all onto the DVD disc. Using variable you can get the file size down a bit more to squeeze a bit more onto the disc.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:10 am

Hi Sue

Variable bit rate is used to reduce the file size in order to fit more minutes to the disc whilst maintaining quality.
It is usually applied when using lower bit rates, at 8000 the variable approach will have little effect and constant should be used.

If your movie is longer than 60 minutes then the bit rate has to be reduced in order to produce a file small enough to fit to disc, (that is below 4.3 GB) the variable rate will help in reducing the file size.

I personally use Constant for all my work. Then again a holiday video longer than 60 minutes can be a little boring.

As for HD I cannot comment on Variable, but as your camera produces a Constant rate I would use that.

Upper and Lower Field order.
It is not practical to mix these field orders.
Ultimately your project will be converted to a Mpeg 2 file prior to burning. Only one ¡¥order¡¦ will be used in the conversion. The choice being yours.
I do not know what affect changing from Lower to Upper or visa-versa may give, other than poor quality.

Converting one of the videos to Frame Based first may be the solution. I would use on the smallest video. Then the project will be converted to a single file using the frame order of the other clip.
Others on the forum may have ideas on using mixed frame orders.

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:28 am

Mixed Field Orders.

This will vary according to the material you have. Mostly mixing field orders is considered taboo and should not be done. If you examine the material concerned you may be able to mix field orders occasionally.

Firstly - still images. These will be frame based and do not present a problem when mixed in with video which has a field order (lower or upper field first)

Most video that originated from a digital source is lower field first.
Most video produced from an analogue source is upper field first.

If you get the field order the wrong way round - the most noticeable problem is jerky effects of moving uprights such as lamp posts and telegraph poles (no they aren't moving - your camcorder was!)

If the footage concerned does not have any (or very little) of these uprights that may be affected by sideways movement then you can get away with mixing the field order. Further more the brightness of the video plays a part. If the scene is brightly lit then you are more likely to notice the jerkiness than if it was a night scene.

The easy answer is try it and see. Once you know the rules you know how far they can be bent.

Sue Whitham · Post by **Sue Whitham** » Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:19 pm

Thanks Chaps.
I'm learning all the time.
A bit of trial and error using your good advice should do the trick.
S.