Video Studio 9 and Field Order settings for MPEG Project ??

DudeBoyz · Post by **DudeBoyz** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:27 pm

I have a series of AVI files in MJPEG format that were captured using AVI_IO and my Matrox G400-TV card. 704x480, 29.97, etc. There appears to be no field order settings when capturing with this card, whether I use the standard Matrox VCR software or the AVI_IO. I use AVI_IO because it always captures with audio and video in sync and has very few dropped frames compared to the Matrox software. Either way, the results on what I'm going to tell you seem to be the same in relation to this issue.

With Video Studio 9, I add the 13 files totalling 90 minutes to the thumbnail list of clips on the right side, then select them all and drag/drop them to the storyboard. I click Share, then Create Disk, have it auto-set chapters every 10 minutes (total of 9 chapters) and then click the Gear icon to adjust project settings.

It seems that no matter which of the Field Order settings I choose, Upper, Lower or FrameBased, the output looks the same on DVD.

This is noticeably different than what happens with Video Studio 7 or 8.

On all 3 outputs from Video Studio 9, the quality seems to look just fine, with none of the odd super-grain, combing and noise that VS 7 or VS 8 seems to produce.

I guess what I'm asking is, are the Field Order settings on the project even working with VS 9, or does VS 9 simply over-rule that setting and force whatever Field Order is appropriate for the output media (Always the NTSC DVD)?

I don't mean to look a gift horse in the mouth, really, but I'm curious as to what may be different with VS 9 that was not in effect with VS 7 or 8.

Playback is on a Sony Playstation 2 with an Svideo connection to a Toshiba 32A33 32" television with 750 lines of resolution - basically a standard 4:3 television set.

If someone could help explain this, I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks

thecoalman · Post by **thecoalman** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:47 pm

Unless there's a lot of movement selecting the wrong field order or frame based may not even be noticeable. What you will see is stair stepping on contrasting colors at angles with the wrong field order or choppy playback on a TV from frame based with a lot of movement.

There's more here on field order selection: http://www.videohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=257631 Ignore the first reply.

DudeBoyz · Post by **DudeBoyz** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:25 pm

Thank you very much for the reply and the link.

I find it rather confusing even after reading that particular thread.

It sounds like some are saying that whatever your field order is from your capture device, you should use that exact same field order all the way through when you make your DVD's. But I have heard that you are supposed to tailor your field order specifically to the format you are exporting to, in this case NTSC DVD to be viewed on a standard interlaced Television.

Add to this that DVD Movie Factory 4 doesn't seem to have any Field Order setting mechanism at all, and it can be quite confusing.

Someone said to me that DVD Movie Factory 4 will read all your analog clips and such in and set them all to the same Field Order - the setting determined by what your output is going to be, such as NTSC DVD. Is that correct?

If so, I'm going to have a hard time mentally reconciling this stuff. I mean, if DVD Movie Factory 4 simply takes care of it 100% automatically, then perhaps I should just use that to create the final DVD?

Thanks again.

Post by **lancecarr** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:35 pm

I went through a similar confusion on this topic a few months back and thanks to the Coalman above, managed to get it sorted out. Basically field order is only important from the capture through to the file creation. Essentially whatever the field order is at the start keep it all the way through. This is for the smooth operation of that entire phase of the procedure prior to burning a DVD. After further research on the web I found that most DVD players now are equipped to handle both field orders and the progressive scan models can deal with no field order (frame based). I have burned DVDs for PAL players using both field orders with no difference in quality on playback and no adverse reactions. The same goes for NTSC systems. So the bottom line is that if you are producing DVD's that play with no problems...don't worry about it!

jchunter · Post by **jchunter** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 2:51 pm

IMHO, your procedure is risky and your properties are incorrect for burning DVDs. If you don't see a difference when setting different field orders, it may be that the DVDs are equally bad... Read the top post and follow the recommended procedure if you want to reliably create good quality DVDs.
John

BTW, VS9 does not "overrule" property settings that you have set manually.

DudeBoyz · Post by **DudeBoyz** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:44 pm

jchunter wrote:IMHO, your procedure is risky and your properties are incorrect for burning DVDs. If you don't see a difference when setting different field orders, it may be that the DVDs are equally bad... Read the top post and follow the recommended procedure if you want to reliably create good quality DVDs.
John

BTW, VS9 does not "overrule" property settings that you have set manually.

My procedure is risky? Properties incorrect?

How's that?

So capturing with AVI_IO from my Matrox G400-TV is bad? Capturing with the standard Matrox software from that same card is also bad?

As for the VS9 thing - I was just asking. Bugs in Ulead products have been known to happen, after all, have they not?

No need to be all harsh and dictatorial, man.

DudeBoyz · Post by **DudeBoyz** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:47 pm

lancecarr wrote:I went through a similar confusion on this topic a few months back and thanks to the Coalman above, managed to get it sorted out. Basically field order is only important from the capture through to the file creation. Essentially whatever the field order is at the start keep it all the way through. This is for the smooth operation of that entire phase of the procedure prior to burning a DVD. After further research on the web I found that most DVD players now are equipped to handle both field orders and the progressive scan models can deal with no field order (frame based). I have burned DVDs for PAL players using both field orders with no difference in quality on playback and no adverse reactions. The same goes for NTSC systems. So the bottom line is that if you are producing DVD's that play with no problems...don't worry about it!

Thanks for the reply.

It looks like DVD Movie Factory 4 doesn't even allow user interaction on Field Order stuff. Seems like it does it all automatically from the get go. Perhaps that is a better option for me?

I just capture to the MJPEG files, open them in DVD Movie Factory 4, use Multi-Trim, assign chapters and burn to the final DVD - no muss, no fuss. Sounds good, at least on the surface. Any reason it shouldn't work like that?

I wonder why DVD Movie Factory 4 would change so that you can't modify field order? Is it just not needed anymore?

Thanks

jchunter · Post by **jchunter** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:16 pm

Have you read the Recommended Procedure?

It specifically warns against trying to burn DVDs with anything in the timeline. It also lists properties that will work reliably. In particular, 720x480 is the NTSC standard for DVD frame size. It recommends making video file of your project prior to burning a DVD. This Procedure was written by people who learned the hard way - by making mistakes.

Did you post your problem looking for answers? If so, the Procedure is the place to start. If you want to fight your own way through the forest go to it! That is the way most of us got started. When you get to the other side, I am sure that you will join us in trying to guide new users into a procedure that will increase their chances of success.
John

DudeBoyz · Post by **DudeBoyz** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:55 pm

My vid capture card captures at 704x480 - not 720x480. Ulead told me long ago that I should specifically encdode for final DVD at 704x480 - that is why they have the option in the product line.

I am asking specifically about Field Order - which behaves differently than in previous iterations of the software. In fact, DVD Movie Factory 4 does not even provide for manually setting that option, unlike Movie Factory 2.

If you can't help with providing information, take your condescending attitude and direct it to others, ok?

thecoalman · Post by **thecoalman** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:02 pm

DudeBoyz wrote:My vid capture card captures at 704x480 - not 720x480. Ulead told me long ago that I should specifically encdode for final DVD at 704x480 - that is why they have the option in the product line.

If that is as high as it capture natively than that's what to stick with, realistically that's a higher resolution that most digital cams/VHS are going to need anyway. Most that have been doing thios for a while only use 640x480 avi capture for regular VHS. Then reduce to 352x480 during conversion to mpeg. This allows for a lower bitrate and gets you about the same quality and more disc space...... It really depends on your source, if it's really good then the higher resolutions are what to use.

Anyhow back to field order, as that link indicates it's not always cut and dried but for the most part DV is bottom field and other cards are top which probably includes the one you use. The best way to eyeball it is find some fast motion video and see what it looks like, pay attention to contrasting colors at a 45 degree angle such as arms swinging on a dark background.

As far as MF4 detecting field order I dn't know, I don't have the product. The only app that I was aware of that detected it was TMPGenc encoder and even that wasn't a perfect....

Do some testing you don't have to stick to "the procedure"

DudeBoyz · Post by **DudeBoyz** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 9:25 pm

thecoalman wrote:
DudeBoyz wrote:My vid capture card captures at 704x480 - not 720x480. Ulead told me long ago that I should specifically encdode for final DVD at 704x480 - that is why they have the option in the product line.
If that is as high as it capture natively than that's what to stick with, realistically that's a higher resolution that most digital cams/VHS are going to need anyway. Most that have been doing thios for a while only use 640x480 avi capture for regular VHS. Then reduce to 352x480 during conversion to mpeg. This allows for a lower bitrate and gets you about the same quality and more disc space...... It really depends on your source, if it's really good then the higher resolutions are what to use.

Anyhow back to field order, as that link indicates it's not always cut and dried but for the most part DV is bottom field and other cards are top which probably includes the one you use. The best way to eyeball it is find some fast motion video and see what it looks like, pay attention to contrasting colors at a 45 degree angle such as arms swinging on a dark background.

As far as MF4 detecting field order I dn't know, I don't have the product. The only app that I was aware of that detected it was TMPGenc encoder and even that wasn't a perfect....

Do some testing you don't have to stick to "the procedure"

Thanks very much for the reply. Much appreciated. I'll give it a go on the Upper and hope for the best.

Happy DVDin'.

DudeBoyz · Post by **DudeBoyz** » Thu Apr 28, 2005 2:39 am

To post a follow up, I wanted to let you all know what I came up with and how I did it in the hopes it may help others. I ended up doing the following:

I downloaded VideoStudio 9 and took the AVI's I had captured and I output it to all 3 formats - FrameBased, Upper and Lower - in a DVD Compliant MPEG-2 file.

I opened that file up in DVD MovieFactory 4 and inserted chapters every 10 minutes, total of 9 chapters for that 90 minute capture. I made the DVD menus and wrote the final DVD project to a VIDEO_TS folder on the hard drive for each of them, and burned 3 DVD-R's and labeled them appropriately, Frame, Upper and Lower.

I played all 3 disks on two different TV's and two different DVD players and found that in both cases, Frame and Upper had noticeable flickering, and Lower did not have much at all.

So, for my particular configuration, capturing from my Matrox G400-TV at 704x480 with AVI_IO to AVI's with MJPEG encoding (supplied in hardware by the Matrox G400-TV card), if I read those files into VideoStudio 9 and then encode to a DVD Compliant MPEG-2 using LOWER field order, then using DVD MovieFactory 4 to make the final DVD, I get the best results.

I hope that helps someone out there.