Mixing avi and mpeg clips in the same project

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Nicholas Rumin
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Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:56 am

Mixing avi and mpeg clips in the same project

Post by Nicholas Rumin »

I have started to create a project which uses both avi footage captured from my camcorder, and mpeg imported from an existing dvd.
At the moment the first clips are from the mpeg file and these are then followed by the avi clips from the camcorder.
The project template properties are set to Microsoft AVI files as the edit file format.
The rendered mpeg file has the audio from the avi clips appearing with the mpeg video :-)
PS Ripple editing was enabled before assembly of the clips/
I obviously did something dumb :-(
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Ken Berry
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Post by Ken Berry »

I can't think what might have caused the very specific problem you have. However, it seems to me that it is seldom a good idea to mix different formats directly in the same project. First, we need to know a couple of things. I am assuming that when you say you have .avi captured from your camcorder, that it is in fact DV/AVI. But can confirm this please. Can you also right click on one of the mpeg files and copy all its properties here please.

There is a possibility that the mpeg uses Upper Field First, but DV/AVI uses Lower Field First. And the basic rule of video editing is that you cannot mix Upper and Lower Field First.

Second, what are you proposing to do with your project? I assume that since you have rendered it to mpeg that you are producing a standard definition DVD. But can you confirm this as well please.

Third, did you split the DV/AVI audio from its video stream? Otherwise, I cannot imagine that ripple editing should have affected audio which was actually part of the main timeline.

My own inclination in such a project would be to edit the individual DV/AVI clips as far as possible. Then either individually, or where several of them are going to run together in the final mpeg, jointly, convert them first to DVD-compatible mpeg-2 (Share > Create Video File DVD). Then, as long as the existing mpeg from the DVD uses Lower Field First, put the new mpeg-2s with the existing mpeg, and finish your editing. When you finish editing, render the whole thing to a single mpeg-2. You could use SmartRender for this which will minimise any loss of quality caused by the recode. But if that causes any audio problems, turn SmartRender off.
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Nicholas Rumin
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Mixing avi and mpeg clips in the same project

Post by Nicholas Rumin »

Yes they are DV/AVI files. Windows does not seem to provide the facility to COPY the file properties, but both the avi and mpeg files comply exactly to those specified in the User Recommended Procedure by jchunter_2 posted Dec 11/04. Certainly both the avi and mpeg file properties are set to Lower Field First.
Indeed the objective is to produce a standard definition DVD.
No I did not try to split the audio from the video.
Your suggestion to handle the avi and mpeg clips separately, and combine them only after rendering the avi clips into an mpeg2 file, makes a lot of sense and seems like a conservative way for someone with my level of expertise to undertake.
You mention the possibility of audio problems if SmartRender is used. I have experienced audio sync problems before even when working only with mpeg2 clips, and I always use SmartRender. I posted about this but the suggestions I got did not include disabling SmartRender.
I mentioned in my question the fact that "The project template properties are set to Microsoft AVI files as the edit file format". I have not found much info in the support documentation on the relationship between the project settings and the captured file properties, especially in a case like mine where I am mixing avi with mpeg2. I presume that the two should be identical which again seems to suggest not to mix video file formats.
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Post by Ken Berry »

Capture and Project properties are of course not always the same. However, in a sense, the Project properties are usually meant for relative newcomers to video editing. If you intend to burn a DVD, then the Project properties will usually reflect this. But not always. If you are capturing DV/AVI from your video camera, then your Project Properties will usually reflect default DV settings. So mixing in mpeg-2 video with DV video, with the Project properties set to DV/AVI, would normally suggest that the mpeg-2 might be edited and somehow processed into mpeg-2.

But of course this is not the case. In fact, you will find as you become more used to editing, that you can virtually ignore the Project Properties. The really important step is what properties are used at the Share > Create Video File step. For newbies, if the Project Properties are set to DVD properties, then all you have to do is select Share > Create Video File > Same as Project Properties. But if your Project Properties are set to DV, that will produce a DV file which will still need conversion to DVD-compatible mpeg-2.

So regardless of what you have in the project -- in your case both DV and mpeg-2 -- if you want to ultimately produce a DVD, then you choose Share > Create Video File > DVD. The project will then be processed into DVD-compatible mpeg-2, and Video Studio will ignore whatever the original Project Properties were. That is why I say that in a sense they are irrelevant.

Selecting Share > Create Video File > DVD will, however, produce a default mpeg-2 which will normally be high quality with a bitrate of 8000 kbps. This means that you will only be able to fit 1 hour of video on a single layer DVD. If your project is 90 minutes long, or 2 hours long, then you will need to use different conversion properties. If you do this often, then it is best to create a special template using Tools > Make Movie Template Manager. If you normally have 90 minute projects, then you would use a bitrate of 6000 kbps. You can also change the audio format -- if you use Dolby or mpeg layer 2 audio, this will mean you can normally fit a bit more video (around 10 minutes) on the eventual DVD as these formats are more compressed than the default LPCM audio. If you have a lot of 2 hour projects, you would use a bitrate of 4000 kbps. You will know, of course, that the lower the bitrate, the lower the final quality of the video on the DVD... :lol:

If you only want to change the mpeg-2 properties for one specific project, then instead of making a template, you simply choose Share > Create Video File > Custom. Then you change the properties using the Options button on the dialogue box which appears.

Before actually converting the DV to mpeg-2 as I originally suggested, you might want to first try converting your original mixed video project to mpeg-2 but turning off SmartRender, just to see if the audio problem persists. In the conversion, with SmartRender on, then Video Studio will be converting the DV but not the mpeg-2. It could be that doing so makes VS run a little out of kilter and the audio gets out of sync with the video.

But if the problem persists even with SmartRender off, then I would first convert the DV to mpeg-2 and then process the project using all mpeg-2 files. And again, you might want to think about turning SmartRender off if you continue to experience out of sync audio problems. If you are using high quality (i.e. bitrate of 7000 or 8000 kbps) mpeg-2 settings, two full conversions of mpeg-2 will probably not produce any degradation in quality which is perceptible to the naked eye. However, such degradation is inevitable with mpeg-2 as it is a lossy format. And the degradation in quality *will* be more obvious if you use lower bitrates... :cry:
Ken Berry
Trevor Andrew

Post by Trevor Andrew »

I totally agree with all being said here.

Just to add

As you are using Mpeg 2 from an old DVD it may be best to use these properties for your new production.
Use tools make movie manager¡XAdd function to create a template to your Mpeg properties.
Use this template to Share create video file of your project.

If you require a new bit rate simply edit this template changing only the bit rate.

Saying that -----It would be nice if we knew what the old Mpeg 2 properties were
Nicholas Rumin
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Post by Nicholas Rumin »

Thank you Ken and Trevor for taking time to provide me with such helpful information. I have not had time to try your suggestions but, for the time being, here are the properties of the mpeg-2 file that I was mixing with DV/avi files.
File format: NTSC DVD
Video type: MPEG-2 Video, Lower field first.
Attributes: 24 bits, 720x480,4:3.
Frame rate: Variable bit rate (Max 8286 kbps).
Audio type: LPCM
Attributes: 48000 Hz, 16 biy, stereo.

I presume that the file format is NTSC DVD because I had set the edit file format to Microsoft AVI in the project template properties before capturing the file from the dvd.
Trevor Andrew

Post by Trevor Andrew »

Hi

A little confused here¡K¡K¡K.

The Mpeg properties are showing NTSC because the Disc/DVD is NTSC.
That¡¦s if you¡¦ve imported it correctly.
How did you capture the file from the DVD?
Ntsc for DVD properties should have nothing to do with the project properties.

Are you saying that you thought it should have been a Pal disc.?????

Nicholas, Where do you live? do you use Pal or Ntsc standards???????????????????????
Nicholas Rumin
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:56 am

Some test results

Post by Nicholas Rumin »

I took a short clip (to speed things up) of the old mpeg2 from the dvd and set the project properties to match those of the mpeg clip. Following this I inserted on the time line a short clip of my DV/avi file. I then used share create video file, first with smart rendering off and then with it on. Results: with smart rendering off the rendering appears to be flawless. With rendering on the sound from the end of the avi section appeared at the end of the mpeg clip and, moreover, in the part rendered from the avi the image was frozen for most of the time :-)
Conclusion: if one insists on mixing video formats, leave smart rendering off!
Once again thank you for all your help. There are no other user groups that I have encountered where my questions received such quick and thorough attention. I hope that you gentlemen get paid for this :-)
Nicholas Rumin
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Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:56 am

Post by Nicholas Rumin »

I just noticed Trevor's last comment after I submitted the above.
Please disregard my slapdash comment. I live in NTSC-land, and what you write is, of course, true.
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