DMF6: Project with DD5.1 audio from video w/DD5.1 audio HELP

GregK · Post by **GregK** » Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:51 am

Couldn't find answers in the manual or Help menu, so I finally decided I might get help here.

I have DMF6 with Patch 2 installed (love it, btw) on a system with WinXP/SP3. Only recently started to try making a few projects with Dolby Digital 5 channel (5.1) sound from video source files which have 5 channel sound. Tried watching two discs I created tonight....and the sound is shoved all over to the right front channel! The default settings....which I usually leave DMF set at....are for DD 2.0 sound, although I've used the "Change MPEG settings" button option to go into the tab for selecting Dolby Digital 3/2 (5 channel) sound.

Can someone explain to me more precisely HOW to correctly use the "Change settings" when using a source which already has Dolby Digital 5.1 sound and retain that in my final project/disc? Once I tried creating a project with 5 channel sound (I assume the subwoofer .1 portion isn't that important) from a source which was only 2.0 sound (MP3 audio on the source)....and the same thing happened with the sound being pushed to the right channel (a wasted disc, like the 2 other wasted discs tonight).

I also re-checked the "Re-enable dialogue confirmatin boxes" because I used to occasionally get a pop-up box with some video files which would tell me "File does not match the project settings. Would you like to change the project settings to match the source?" (something to that effect). I assumed I had checked the "Don't notify me again" box, which is why that dialogue box stopped showing up. What is an exact instance/reason that dialogue would show up....in regards to the video, audio, or both? I had noticed a couple of times when the side-by-side details box showed me the info for my source and for the project, and I think I had noticed audio differences (but can't recall the specifics right now)....I'd like to get that dialogue box back but can't make it reappear (even tried reinstalling the entire program and patch, and nothing).

Haven't really gotten into anything TOO complex with DMF6, but this DD5.1 audio thing is something I'd like to figure out so any discs I create will be useable when I eventually get a Dolby Digital amp.

Thanks for any help/input, and sorry for the LONG post.

neonbob · Post by **neonbob** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:25 am

MF6 isn't really an editor (although it does contain a few BASIC editing functions). It is really just a burner program that burns what you give it. In order to burn as 5.1 audio then you MUST give it 5.1 audio.

So the question is.... what file(s) did you import/capture to MF6? You said the original file included 5.1 audio.... how do you know... where did it originate?

GregK · Post by **GregK** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:30 am

Thanks for responding so quickly....

It/they were AVI files I imported into the program, and when clicking the I (information) button for the file, I not only was told by DMF that the file contained 5.1 audio, but also when checking the file(s) in Gspot Information Appliance, that program also told me the file(s) had DD 5 channel sound.

So again....with my project settings set (in the "Change mpeg settings" window) for 5 channel (3/2 Dolby Digital).....why didn't I get DD 5 channel sound in my final disc? Sound was pushed over to the right channel.....sound was properly left and right when listening to the audio on my computer.

POINT: Does the .1 portion make any difference in DMF, since the audio settings only indicate 5 channel (3/2) as an option?

neonbob · Post by **neonbob** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:56 am

GregK wrote:
POINT: Does the .1 portion make any difference in DMF, since the audio settings only indicate 5 channel (3/2) as an option?

No.
Contrary to popular belief, the LFE channel is not actually part of the Dolby AC3 spec and is simply an option for extending low frequency response for added effects.

Next question; how was the DD5.1 sound on the avi file balanced? When setting up a DD5.1 sound track you are given a panning dial that allows you to send sound to each speaker. If the pan bubble is in the center, evenly distanced from all of the speakers, then the sound will be evenly distributed to all channels. But if the panning bubble is closer to the left front speaker then that's where most of the sound will go. So you need to know how the sound was set up.

GregK · Post by **GregK** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:41 am

Bob, you're getting into details I know absolutely NOTHING about.....All I know is the files had 5.1 sound and sounded perfect when played in Windows Media Player.....but not in my final DVD with the project settings set to 5 channel (3/2) sound in the "Change MPEG settings". Why do I need to "know" about this bubble thing (which is new to me), and there is no way I will ever be able to find that out about these files.....Simply put: Why doesn't DMF simply accept a 5 channel input file and produce a 5 channel disc project?

All I can add is that I have the K-Lite Codec pack on my system and use the FFDshow filter to manage things. Has helped out on a LOT of problems I used to have with different codecs, etc. GSpot, in the Audio block of that program, tells me the file has a Bitrate of "448 kb/s (5 ch) CBR ". BUT down in the Render area (DirectShow Render), it says the Audio Src is "AC3 (0x2000)"....which is contradictory to the Bitrate area info. Possibly I need to disable something when using DMF to produce a 5 channel project from a 5 channel source?

neonbob · Post by **neonbob** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:42 am

Something doesn't add up here.

Are you sure that this file contains a muxed AC3 audio file? Or was it maybe a 5 channel WAV (PCM) file (which is different from AC3)

To be honest I'm not sure I have ever heard of a AVI file with a muxed AC3 track... although I suppose it's possible since AVI is merely a container. But the norm for multi audio channel AVI tracks are multi channel WAV files (which can go as high as 10 tracks)

GregK · Post by **GregK** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:09 am

Ah sheesh....

In the same Audio area of GSpot, it also says:

"ac3 (0x2000) Dolby Laboratories, Inc"

Which is why I don't understand the other area which says "448 kb/s (5 ch) CBR".

Maybe this isn't working because it really IS 2 channel DD, not 5 channel.

neonbob · Post by **neonbob** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:45 pm

Well, It's clear that you're a bit confused on the structure of the input file so what I would do if I were you is find a test file in which you KNOW the structure and are certain it contains an AC3 5.1 surround track, then give it another go.

The bit that I can offer you here is that I do a tremendous amount 5.1 surround work, and MF6 has yet to fail me. It outputs EXACTLY what I input. Given that, I would have to suggest that there is something not quite right with your file

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:10 pm

Another point is don't use Gspot.

In your playback device (whatever your using), you want to set the Audio up to "BITSTREAM" an NOT "PCM".

This can also depend on your audio amp receiver but generally to pass true Dolby Audio you put this setting to "BitStream"

Neonbob, That's good to know that MF6+ isn't changing your 5.1 output from the other program.

On my PS3 I have to have the audio setup to output as "BitStream" and then my receiver says "Dolby". When playing back a real Blu-Ray disk in the PS3 you can change this to PCM or BitStream in realtime. You can also change the color settings to true RGB.
It's under the "Options" button ( The triangle ) which brings up a translucent navigation screen" (while playing back a blu-ray disk). But for me to get the original Dolby track on the PS3 I have to set the audio to "BitStream", otherwise the PCM goes to my amp and appears to simulate Dolby depending on my audio amps settings.

At least that's what happens on my setup.

neonbob · Post by **neonbob** » Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:57 pm

I have my PS3 set for bitstream as well. I have the Onkyo 705 receiver which can decode all this stuff on its own so I prefer to use it. I have actually never bothered with the PCM setting so I can't attest as to how it sounds. Maybe I'll play with it a little if I get some time.

GregK · Post by **GregK** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:48 am

etech6355 wrote:Another point is don't use Gspot.

Why not? Gspot is one place I tried checking the audio stream info. DMF6 is the other place which told me what the info was. Gspot has served me very well on many instances for different reasons

In your playback device (whatever your using), you want to set the Audio up to "BITSTREAM" an NOT "PCM".

I don't have a Dolby Digital receiver (in my initial post I only mentioned "when I get a Dolby Digital amp"). Every one of my DVD players' manuals says to use the Dolby Digital/Bitstream setting if I am actually connected to and using a DD amp. PLUS, sometimes I only listen to the sound through my tv speakers.....and many discs have both 5.1 as well as 2.0 audio options (2.0 is supposed to be used for tv sound playback).....so what's the correct thing to do here? DVD/VCR combo player I just got (my second one) also has Bitstream or PCM option, and says to have it set to PCm unless I have a DD hookup. This can't be making a difference because I even checked this new player out with a Trek disc which had both 5.1 and 2.0 audio....what would be the difference between the playback of a store-bought 5.1 disc and one created by DMF?

This can also depend on your audio amp receiver but generally to pass true Dolby Audio you put this setting to "BitStream"

.....Again: even if I don't have a DD receiver?

GregK · Post by **GregK** » Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:54 am

ADDENDUM: ...and you may very well be correct about there being a problem with the file(s) I previously mentioned.

1. The fact that Gspot tells me one thing when the file information is something else (the Gspot 2 channel/5 channel conflicting information I mentioned). I'm thinking the AVI files are really with 2.0 sound, because...

2. I re-checked/tested the one DVD project I described, where I took a movie which had deleted scenes on the disc, and reinserted them back into the movie. Did this by using the Import DVD function in DMF, did my editing/assembly, and burneed the disc. Just checked that disc out a few minutes ago (hadn't actually watched it yet)....and the left/right sound was there and as it should be (remember: I only have a Dolby Pro-Logic receiver, not a DD one). No "pushing over" of the sound to the right channel as I previously described with the problem discs I did from AVI.

Deduction: The AVI files don't have TRUE 5 channel sound....whereas the DVD project I did by importing right from a DVD obviously had. Hearing those AVI files' sound within the DMF program sounds fine, but that's entirely different from having a final DVD with 5.1 sound, where the sound is getting pushed over.

Last Question

: How can I truly test a file before importing to DMF to be absolutely certain it has sound that will be compliant and WORK with creating 5 channel sound in DMF? There has to be a way....regardless of that fact that right-clicking on a file within the program tells me the file has DD 5 channel sound. Gotta be another way to verify this in the future.

neonbob · Post by **neonbob** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:07 am

GregK wrote:.

Last Question : How can I truly test a file before importing to DMF to be absolutely certain it has sound that will be compliant and WORK with creating 5 channel sound in DMF? There has to be a way....regardless of that fact that right-clicking on a file within the program tells me the file has DD 5 channel sound. Gotta be another way to verify this in the future.

I just use an audio editor to check mine (Adobe Audition 3). I import a AC3 file to it and it breaks up the file into 6 different wav files. It's not cheap though.

However you can do much the same with a program called AC3tools Pro. It's not free (costs $50) but it does come with a 15 day full trial... google for it.

GregK · Post by **GregK** » Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:24 am

BeLight would do the same thing for me....but since you brought up the subject of a program that splits the audio, I haven't tried checking my files out with BeLight. Will have to do so and get back to you to know for certain how the audio is on these.

Ran off another project last night from another file I had which definitely had 5 channel sound (verified this in several different programs to check the audio properties)....but anyway, although I haven't burned a disc yet, I played the ISO file back on my computer, and the front channel sound is as it should be. It's heard through both channels, and isn't pushed to the right channel like it did in the two previously mentioned problem files I had.

Conclusion: This one I ran off last night did have actual 5 channel sound and the other two did not. Will have to recover the other two AVI files and try them again since I deleted them after creating my ISO files (which is how I do my projects....never with direct-to-disc burns). Strange....but this is the only thing I can think of, that they didn't have actual 5 channel sound, no matter what DMF or Gspot told me. Weird.

GregK · Post by **GregK** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 7:43 pm

Here's another strange thing which happened to me on this same subject:

I ran off a project using an MPG file which clearly had AC3/5.1 sound, changing the DMF settings for 5 channel sound.....the resulting ISO file had the sound (as I described before here) pushed over to the right channel, even though my input file clearly and most definitely had 5 channel sound. I then used Super! to extract the video's sound to an AC3 file, input it into the project (replacing the video file's own AC3 5 channel sound), ran it off again....and the resulting ISO file had the CORRECT and properly placed 5 channel sound.....no pushing over to the right channel.

Why did this happen? Seems to me there's a bug or problem with DMF accepting AC3 sound.