SLOW sluggish SOFT (?) output files

richsimpson · Post by **richsimpson** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:19 pm

Hi there,

You may well have seen various posts over the last few days from me.

I bought VS11.5+ mainly due to AVCHD ability and am yet to get to know the software properly so have not used it for that purpose so far.

I am learning on standard Def footage and so far am very unimpressed. (Typical negaive british!!!)

I have made a few trials with various footage burnt through Tmpeg Authr 1.6 and VS 11.5+

The outcome is that footage recorded via my capture card either through its deciated software or through VS11.5+ is good.

The footage recorded is Mpeg2. When authored through VS11.5+ the output file seems really soft and although not jerky, it is slow.

Motor racing is the footage am using at present with fast moving backrounds.

The output files from TMPEG Author 1.6 are sharp/fast/precise. The output files from VS11.5+ are softer and slower in comparison althoug are less block and picxely.

Is there any setting to change the sharpness in the software. I have looked all over but cant find one!

So far I am really disapointed in VS11.5, I hope I can be proved wrong, its probably that I am using bad settings but with all the feedback so far and various attempts its still not great.

The editing suite is fantastic but the overall results I am still waitining to see any wow factor.

Has anyone noticed the output files are sluggish/soft and a bit blurry?

POSSIBLE SOLUTION - CAN THE CODEC BE CHANGED AS THE CURRENT ONE BEING USED OBVIOUSLY INSN'T UP TO SCRATCH

Post by **Ken Berry** » Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:41 pm

As far as I am aware, the mpeg-2 codec used by VS is licenced from MainConcept, which is quite a reputable firm. Other editing packages, including Adobe Premiere Pro, also use MainConcept codecs. And many (most?) of us here have no difficulties with the quality of their output from VS (whatever the version) using that codec. So I for one am not prepared to accept your blanket judgment that it is 'not up to scratch'...

That being said, I acknowledge that it is totally legitimate on your part to want to try an alternative codec. The trouble is that I don't think there is a way to use a separate mpeg-2 codec within VS. It is relatively easy to install and use codecs which fall into the broad 'AVI' family. But there doesn't seem be a similar possibility, choosing Share > Create Video File > Custom > Options > Compression, to select a specific mpeg-2 codec as there is when you choose 'AVI' as the output format...

But I too would be most interested if others have found a way.

richsimpson · Post by **richsimpson** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 12:13 pm

The codec may well be 'not up to sctratch' beacuse I haven't got a clue what I'm doing Ken!!!

I wonder if there is any setting to change the sharpness of the video, mine is set at standard as will be everone elses unless they have noticed a problem and changed a setting.

Is your output dvd files sharp or could they be described as soft?

Next step will be to try a different capture card, one that records AVI as well as MPEG 2 although the recorded files when burnt through different programs to a dvd file seem perfectly fine.

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:02 pm

I'm coming in late, as I haven't seen your previous posts. I'm no expert in VS, as I use MSP, which uses the same codec. Generally speaking, capturing in MPEG-2 is not the best idea unless you do so in DVD-compliant, when the output is for a DVD. MPEG-2 is a distribution format and is not intended for working on. In all probability, you are trying to stretch the barriers by re-encoding it and this is always hairy.

Unfortunately, we need to know the full format details of your captured video (format, size, fps, colour depth, audio format, video and audio bitrates, field sequence) and then the same for your encoding settings.

I suggest also you may care to consider that it is easier to walk before running. With fast-moving videos, such as motor racing, it is very unforgiving, because the P and B frames tend to be overloaded with data, making the encoding compression work hard. This means that, for a given bitrate, the results may seem to be less good. I suggest you start with an average video and work on it until you get good results and only then should you try to do the more difficult kind.

There is another variable with fast-moving scenes: the camcorder. You will get very different results with CCD and CMOS types, and also with 1- and 3- capture device types. Also the set shutter speed will make a big difference. This is another good reason to start with an average type of scene, where the differences will be less evident.

Just some thoughts...

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:21 pm

Sorry, but I am a sharpness freak!

But really, I am. And believe me I understand when you complain about 'soft' video. It was one of the things that drove me away from VCDs and mpeg-1 6 or 7 years ago and made me buy my first DVD burner (for more than 6 times what you pay now...!)

And yes, my DVD-compliant mpeg-2 and the final burned DVDs using them, are very sharp. I simply won't accept anything that looks 'soft'. Most of them come from a variety of mini-DV cameras I have, capturing and editing in DV, then converting to DVD/mpeg-2 format. But I have also two capture/TV cards which use direct capture to DVD/mpeg-2 and again, they provide more than sharp enough video, even when the broadcast bitrate is down around the 5000 kbps level, which with home made movies I would equate with only a bit better than average quality.

I had an older computer with a Winfast DV2000 tv/capture card which also used to capture to mpeg-2. I used to always capture on that using the Winfast PVR capture program, but open the captured mpeg-2 in VS for editing. Again, no trouble. I recall that that one did allow me, within the PVR control program, to change brightness, contrast, gamma settings, but I recall it also had a general good-better-best setting for sharpness though if I recall correctly, I always left that as it was on 'better'.

If you do buy another card that can do "AVI" just recall there are a million (well over 800) varieties of video that call themselves .AVI. And the majority of capture cards, including TV/capture cards, under $100 will usually only capture AVI as full, uncompressed AVI which runs at 65 GB per hour of video and so is impractical for most people. It is the really expensive capture devices like the Plextor or Canopus, which are up in the $300 or higher mark, which capture from an analogue source to DV/AVI, which do a brilliant job in that format.

Adstech, for its part, makes an extremely good DVD Xpress DX2 device for under $100 which has a built-in chip which captures direct to DVD/mpeg-2 format. The only 'problem' with that one is that you have to use the capture software which comes with it (CapWiz) to capture. But after that you can open the captured mpeg-2 and edit it in VS with no problems...

richsimpson · Post by **richsimpson** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:22 pm

Thanks.

I am taking footage from tv through adaptec 2410 video capture card.

I have taken the footage in through the original software that was bundled (windvr) at best settings PAL 4:3 25fps, Upper Field First, and 720x576 frame size, bitrate 6800.

This footage when put through TMPEG AUTH comes out sharp and good quality.

I have also taken footage of same scenes through UL VS 11.5+ in the capture mode at PAL DVD format settings which were the same as above but 6500KBITS/SEC.

This footage when put through TMPEG AUTH comes out sharp and good quality.

Either of the source files when authored in ULEAD VS 11.5+ are soft in the output files.

The output settings are UFF, 720x576 4:3 PAL DVD, if set as 6500 or 6800 KBITS SEC the output files are soft. i hope that describes it correctly, the output video is not particularly jumpy like if field order is wrong but soft/blurry.

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:35 pm

Question: are your captured files DVD-compliant? If so, have you tried authoring them with the re-encoding disabled in VS? I don't know the details of VS, but somewhere there will be a check box with something like "do not re-encode compliant files" (or it may be the opposite). If it is greyed out, that will mean your files are not compliant.

richsimpson · Post by **richsimpson** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:10 pm

Well the one captured inside Videostudio are taken in the format DVD

The options menu says DVD PAL GQ so I assume that the files are DVD compliant.

The output is set to create disc. In the options folder in that screen (the one with a cog) the options are set the same as the input. Do not convert compliant files is checked.

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 2:26 pm

Well, if that is checked and your files are compliant, then there is no re-encoding and the DVD is burnt exactly as it is captured.

One question: how are you judging the quality of your DVD, on your computer or on a TV through a set-top DVD player? That can make an enormous difference. The resultant DVD from Ulead products are optimised for TV viewing, by default, not for monitor viewing.

richsimpson · Post by **richsimpson** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:31 pm

Watching on tv through dvd player and/or PS3 upscaling.

Always the same, the ULEAD VS 11.5 dvd is poor.

I have d/loaded the trial Sony software for vegas 8 and the DVD architect.

I used teh original clip made with the capture card own software. Then using ULEAD clipped it to part of the race I have been using to gauge how good teh results are of the different softwares.

Then burnt the dvd in sony dvd. The outcome was a good picture.

That was using the ULEAD part to clip the mpeg file only and output a new mpeg file so it seems the part where the video starts to look bad is within ULEAD where it makes the DVD files out of the Mpeg files.
Total time from opening the SONY product to getting DVD was about 6 mins

I have also done the same test and used the ULEAD movie maker to create the disc but with the same orignal file from WINDVR (Capture card bundled software), then clipped via ULEAD 11.5 and then burnt through the seperate opening of Moviemaker. The output file is good quality.
Total time from opening the MOVIEMAKER product to getting DVD was 8 mins

So now the first good output file from ULEAD. Maybe getting somewhere.

I am currently sending the project to 2 mpeg video files and will then attmept ot make a dvd using the moviemaker program seperately. WIll report back again.

I want to make sure I am comfy with the software from start to finish with standard deff content before I move on to AVCHD, and want the same software for both.

6 weeks to go to baby arriving so need to be ready by then LOL

Cheers
Rich

richsimpson · Post by **richsimpson** » Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:52 pm

Ok, now VS wont allow me to use the mpeg files, eddit them and then send them to a new mpeg file.

My plan was to remove the adverts etc and create a new mpeg file to then use for the next process. Used option SHARE}VIDEO FILE then instead of one of the pre set options i used SAME AS FIRST CLIP

VS stops after about a few mins and says it can not complete the task.

I wonder if there is a maximum mpeg size it is willing to create?

Got to 46% and said Ulead videostudio has stopped working, a problem caused the program to stop working corectly.....

Trying to do a file about 20 mins long also causes VS to crash.

Got the atest direct x (says version 9 but is the one on microsoft as 7/3/08 date)

I thought that I was getting somewhere but it seems back to square one????

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 8:48 am

Now you're puzzling me. Firstly, you speak of AVCHD, implying you have files from your camcorder. Now you talk of removing the advertisements, implying you are recording public broadcasts, which may have all sorts of added data, including some forms of copy protection. But you don't say whether you are recording it as a digital signal or through analogue, using a converter card. Nor do you tell us what the settings are for your Share operation. Nor do you tell us the exact message when it "stops".

None of this is helpful. In order to help you, we need to know EVERYTHING about what you are doing, as we are not clairvoyant.

richsimpson · Post by **richsimpson** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:49 am

recording from a sky channel onto pc via adfaptec 2410 capture card in mpeg format, with settings mentioned erlier n the thread.

recordign through composite.

The footage plays fine in pc, when burnt through other software is also okay Just whne using VS that it is a problem. Wishing i had bought different software now.

The footage is analogue tv footage and the mention to avchd is what I will progress to. Problem being that if this software stuggles to handle standard video footage I doubt it will be capable of touching AVCHD and I may as well buy something decent.

So to clarify this is standard tv footage beig recorded in PAL DVD 720*576, 4:3, mpeg 2, with 6800kb/s although I have tried various settings.

Always being output ot same as the input source settings.

Recorded both through VS11 and also through the capture card original software.

Reordings are soft, and not sharp.

Also the VS will not allow to send the file back to a sepearte mpeg with the cuts/edits made. The error message is not coded at all just a plain Ulead videostudio has stopped working, a problem caused the program to stop working corectly.

Just looked in control panel as was going to uninstall the program asnd there is a section for program issues.

This one is reported:

Problem Event Name: APPCRASH
Application Name: VSTUDIO.EXE
Application Version: 11.0.0.0
Application Timestamp: 4762104e
Fault Module Name: MSVCR80.dll
Fault Module Version: 8.0.50727.1434
Fault Module Timestamp: 4757746d
Exception Code: c0000005
Exception Offset: 0001500a
OS Version: 6.0.6001.2.1.0.768.3
Locale ID: 2057
Additional Information 1: dad9
Additional Information 2: 5eae1d9cb4970ccd92db4635ec691936
Additional Information 3: 0c0e
Additional Information 4: e5494f7ace1dbf399f86238dad18c60a

ANY IDEAS?????

I have searched for the DLL in above coding on my PC and it shows in the OLD windows folder form when I upgraded to Vista. Thats on a seperate hardrive but does not get a mention on the main C drive anywhere?

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:25 pm

Ah! You have a Windows problem. MSVCR80.dll is a pig of a Microsoft abortion and is the cause of hundreds of faults. I suggest you Google msvcr80.dll and read some of the thousands of problems that it causes. You will also find some utilities to resolve the situation. There are probably over 1,000 builds of it and they are not intercompatible. I'm not surprised if you are running Vista and the version you have belongs to an older Windows that it baulks.

However, I don't think that this would be the cause of your "soft" images, which is not a characteristic of the MainConcept encoder in Ulead and many other competitive products. Just to illustrate this, have a look at http://www.bnellis.com/mpgcomp/ The top pic of the yellow-billed stork (in fast flight with panned camera) is from a frame of a small section of a DV original, enlarged to 300%. The pic at 6000 kbit/s CBR is the same frame after encoding with the same encoder as you have. Even under these extreme conditions, I think you will agree that the differences are really very small and certainly would not appear as a loss of resolution with normal DVD viewing. I conclude therefore that your assertion is not supported in fact, which view is substantiated by Ken Berry who calls himself something like a sharpness freak. What this means is that you must be doing something which neither of us have been able to lay our fingers on. Quite frankly, it has been difficult trying to work with you, with all the best will in the world, as you seem to have your own ideas and have not co-operated with our suggestions for trials and so on. Plus, I do not understand why you are trying to do an evaluation using downloaded video from broadcast material, when you state you will be using an AVCHD camera. This is like saying a Mondeo or Camry is no use as a car because a Fiesta or Yaris does not go fast enough on a trial drive.

richsimpson · Post by **richsimpson** » Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:36 pm

I'm sure i have done everything you have suggested??!! Quite a patronising suggestion you make there Devil. What would you like me to do? I will do whatever it takes!!! Tell me a trial and I will do it?

The footage is analogue footage captured through a capture card. Nothing to do with downloads.

The reason for refering to AVCHD is because that is what I intend on using once I am familiar with the software and its capabilities - or lack of.

I have been reading the problems for the particular dll thats missing and am currently reistalling vista from scratch hoping that will work rather than the upgrade that I did from xp.

I have already removed and reistalled ULead VS but thats not worked.

Regarding soft files, I did get one to come out good yesterday. That was by converting to a video file with same properties as the original footage and then moving to the moviemaker program seperately instead of as one big process.

I thought that was my answer but then I fall into the next problem where I can not get all files to be shared to a new MPEG due to this dll issue.

Let me know what you want me to do and I will do it.

I have never had any software thats caused such a headache before and after spending silly hours trying to get to the bottom of it I intend on seeing it through to the end so your continued support is appreciated