Extremely Slow Playback in the VS11+ Timeline

Joseph Clark · Post by **Joseph Clark** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:35 am

I'm new to these forums, though not to digital editing. I downloaded VS11.5+ for AVCHD editing. I'm getting unusable speeds within the timeline when I try to watch any AVCHD footage, and navigation is impossibly sluggish. Even the included sample project (which looks to be quite low res) is stuttering badly and will not play back cleanly on my system.

I know I could have some codec issues on my system, and I need a rebuild, but I'd like to ask what kind of responsiveness I can expect on my system (outlined below), and maybe some feedback on what my problems could be caused by.

Source: Canon HF10 AVCHD at 17mbps (highest quality). I transferred the footage using an SDHC memory card reader directly to the computer, then imported it into VS11.5+ from the hard drive.

Computer: Intel Core2Duo @ 3GHZ. 4GB RAM. Striped 7200 HDD's in RAID0 configuration. Radeon 3850 video card.

The video plays back just fine in Nero Showtime (Nero 8 Ultra), but playback in VS is not usable. I downloaded VS11Plus, plus the Content, Bonus and VS11 Plus ESD ENG PowerPack files.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:14 am

You computer certainly should be able to play AVCHD without problem despite its (excessively) demanding nature...

When you click on the ? symbol in the top right of the VS screen and choose About VS, it should show your version as being 11.5.0157.2. If you don't have the final 2, then you need to install the first update patch from the Ulead.com site, dated 6 November. It is below the Power Pack. (Ignore the Hot Fix.) See if that makes a difference.

Joseph Clark · Post by **Joseph Clark** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:45 am

Many thanks, Ken. Navigation is now bearable. (They should have sent me a link to that fix when I downloaded the files in the first place.) I'm importing my clips again.

Joseph Clark · Post by **Joseph Clark** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:58 pm

I spoke too soon. When I try to import the files into the library, the computer crashes. Also, from the timeline itself, and not just the preview window, playback is still unacceptable - extremely choppy. I'm going to try a rebuild, and I do have parts for a quad core system coming this week, but I don't think the problem is CPU power.

Joseph Clark · Post by **Joseph Clark** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:15 pm

So that I have a frame of reference here for this problem, let me ask what kind of playback I should be getting on the sample project that comes with VS11 (the one with the skiers). Once I get into even a few layers, the video becomes extremely choppy.

Also, are there any Canon HF10 or HF100 users here on the forum who are editing AVCHD at 17mbps?

John Moran_2 · Post by **John Moran_2** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:21 pm

I have not used a camcorder since the 8mm analog days of the early 1990's, but made a snap decision to purchase a Canon HF-100 last week. The 4gigs of indoor AVCHD 1440x1080i clips that I shot at a school event do play just fine on my underpowered Vista laptop with bundled Canon (Pixela) software. The files are also playable directly from the camera by wire on an analog NTSC (analog) CRT television. I burned the original files to a non blu-ray DVD.

I'm making this post to let others know that it is OK to go ahead and grab one of these litle HDSD flash card marvels for capturing and playing back images, even if they do not have a big screen TV or a powerful computer. I will keep reading, but will wait for Visual Studio 12 (or better) software before trying any editing though. I have learned a lot, thanks to this forum and others on the Internet this week, and frankly cannot believe that somebody won't crack the AVCHD editing nut so that those files can be edited with reasonable Windows computing power.

Hope I am not proved wrong. If so, it's back to still pictures and PhotoImpact X3, which was a belated upgrade to my copy of rock solid PhotoImpact 6 this year.
JM_2

Joseph Clark · Post by **Joseph Clark** » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:10 pm

I agree that this little Canon camcorder is a joy to work with. It has its limitations, but it's absolutely amazing what can be done with it. I'll get through the workflow issues eventually (I think

) and the convenience of using a flash based camcorder is undeniable. I also love being able to take the SD card out of the camcorder and plug it directly into my Playstation 3 for immediate playback after shooting - just like tape, but so much easier.

I have good expectations for VS11.5 and hopefully I'll be able to report better results later this week.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:33 am

So that I have a frame of reference here for this problem, let me ask what kind of playback I should be getting on the sample project that comes with VS11 (the one with the skiers).

Well, I tracked down that sample project, and opened the so-called PAL version. It is of course standard definition WMV. I played it in Project mode and while it started off smoothly, motion very quickly degenerated after about 3 seconds into jumpy frame to frame motion. Then it would revert to almost smooth motion, but then get choppy again. I thought it might be better when I played it a second time, but it performed exactly the same. I played individual tracks in clip mode, and they were not much better. So I guess I was getting much the same performance as you did. You will note from my System button that I have a well resourced Quad,

Anyway, there are a couple of things I noticed about that sample. It was said to be PAL though its frame settings were NTSC (720 x 480). This in itself seemed even more unusual to me since it is WMV format throughout, and my WMV codecs gave a maximum of 640 x 480. I had never bothered installing Windows Media Encoder 9 since I simply don't use .wmv and the existing codecs on the computer have no problem with the small streaming videos I occasionally get which use the format. But I downloaded and installed WME 9, rebooted the computer. And the extra formats (e.g. Neptune) still didn't allow me the choice of setting a frame size of 720 x 480. And the playback of the sample did not improve one jot or tittle.

So I did a quick encode out to a final WMV. I'd note here that there is no option to choose Share > Create Video File > Same As First Clip even though the first clip in this case had exactly the same properties as all the other clips. Anyway, the final wmv played back smoothly. Altogether, not a particularly satisfactory experience...

Turning to AVCHD, my experience has been that on my Quad, playback in Clip mode is fine -- smooth and normal motion. In Project mode, however, playback tends to be a bit jumpy as with the WMV sample above, particularly when I have edited it, and even if the edit is only changing volume levels or muting audio altogether. Generally, however, when I play it a second time, it plays back much more smoothly, though still not as good as in Clip mode. I should note that this also tends to be the case with the much easier to handle HDV format as well. Anyway, I have learned over the years to be wary of the VS preview window. And if you think about it, with HDV/AVCHD, the program is being asked, in Project mode, to do a temporary render on the fly of a highly complex high resolution video. And this seems to be almost too much even for the more powerful computers currently available.

Anyway, in recent weeks I have learned simply to ignore the jumpy motion and simply see if the various edits are actually there and look OK. When I render to a final, either HDV TS file for export back to my camera or direct playback over my PS3, or when I make an AVCHD hybrid disc, the end quality is invariably superb. (I qualify the latter in the case of AVCHD discs by saying I change the VS defaults in the burning module to raise the bitrate for better quality.)

Anyway, that's my experience to date in a large nutshell!

However, I too would be most interested if any other user of VS11.5+ for AVCHD or HDV editing gets better (i.e. smoother) playback on their computer, particularly in Project mode.

Oh -- and a footnote for JM_2: I think you will find that your HF-100 will actually film in full HD resolution 1920 x 1080 AVCHD, rather than the 1440 x 1080 you mention, which is the typical HDV format.

Post by **Ron P.** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:43 am

There is a Ulead WMV setting found, that uses NTSC 720 x 480. You have to go to the Customize settings on the Profile tab, of the Options dialog for WMV... (ie; it's hidden fairly well)..

John Moran_2 · Post by **John Moran_2** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:54 am

Ken Berry wrote: Oh -- and a footnote for JM_2: I think you will find that your HF-100 will actually film in full HD resolution 1920 x 1080 AVCHD, rather than the 1440 x 1080 you mention, which is the typical HDV format.

Yes, but I thought I would try to walk with what I thought was 4:3 ratio before flying with 16:9. Then it took me several days to find the right buttons to push to downsize the quality further to "export" the files as 720x480 mp2 with bundled Canon software. Off topic for Ulead VS, but FWIW.

JM_2

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:56 am

Ahhhh! Thanks Ron!

Mind you, now that I look at the list which appears, It only shows Ulead_PAL/NTSC (Good Quality) (as well as Ulead_Neptune in various qualities, and all the other Neptune settings, Zune etc). And the frame format shows as an unchangeable 352 x 288. So I still don't seem to have a 720 x 480/720 x 576 or even for that matter, extrapolating upwards, a 704 x 480/704 x 576....

Joseph Clark · Post by **Joseph Clark** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:58 am

That's pretty much my experience so far. I was able to import my video clips directly from the Camcorder using Pixela (the software that came with the HF10). Pixela combines these files from .MTS segments (under 2GB) into one long .m2ts. Those files play much more smoothly than the straight MTS files copied directly from the SDHC memory card, but the timeline is extremely unresponsive. As I said, though, it's puzzling, since my computer can play back the files from within Nero Showtime very smoothly. It's as though VS11.5 doesn't have access to the codec needed for clean playback. That's a shame. I'm definitely going to use this only for quick edits that don't involve much in the way of transitions or audio sweetening.

My major workflow still will be Adobe Premiere, with the .m2ts files converted to the Cineform intermediate format by HDLink. When I'm finished, I'll probably use VS11.5 for final output and maybe Dolby Digital 5.1, since the Premiere third party DD solution is an optional (and expensive) third party plug-in.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:10 am

Just be aware that as far as I have found with Premiere Pro 3, if you are intending to output in Adobe's AVCHD format, you will get separate video and audio files. The video, if I recall, uses an extension of .m4v with the 'v' indicating it is video only. And while there may be other programs out there which recognise it and accept it, apart from Adobe Encore, they are likely to be at the professional end of the market. Video Studio would not (I have already gone that route!) though it *will* accept Premiere's separate video and audio HDV/mpeg-2 files, the video in that case using the extension .m2v

Joseph Clark · Post by **Joseph Clark** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:22 am

If I export from Premiere as m4v. and separate audio, will VS11.5 accept the streams and author them as AVCHD to Blu-ray onto regular DVD recordables? Onto regular DVD recordables as HD DVD content?

Joseph Clark · Post by **Joseph Clark** » Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:51 am

Well, my system just recovered from a crash while I was trying to create a DVD folder onto the hard drive from my 2hr30min project. I don't know if it's VS11 or my flaky computer. I definitely need a rebuild.

Cool feature: you can import a VS project directly into the "Create Disc" interface, without having to render the movie first. Not a big deal, I guess, but I like it.

Anyway, I was able to get into the "Create Disc" mode and author the DVD with the supplied templates. This was very familiar territory for me, since I've used MovieFactory to create hundreds of HD DVDs on regular recordables. I tried to jot a note in Firefox at the same time and my system died. I'm going to try again and let it be for a couple of hours.

Odd think - according to the help file, Smart Proxy files are supposed to be created automatically for all files above 720x480 that are added to the timeline. They didn't do this for my project files (1920x1080 30p). I can live with VS11 creating those proxy files if it means a smooth workflow. Anyone know how to force the system to create the proxies? I couldn't find a way to do it.