Panasonic SD9 capture AVCHD

Astacus · Post by **Astacus** » Mon May 26, 2008 9:18 am

Hello all,
I have just purchased a Panasonic SD9, and am failing miserably to capture any AVCHD video using Video Studio 11plus (trial download installed flawlessly yesterday). I have tried:

Capture/Import from DVD
Point to the SD9 SD disk (E:)
Find the E/PRIVATE/AVCHD folder and point to that
Click OK

The clips are listed on the left, but the moment I select one, the application crashes.

Others here seem to have solved this, and I worry if I am doing something wrong. Format is the highest quality 1920HX setting.

All advise much appreciated, thank you

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon May 26, 2008 10:33 am

Welcome to the forums!

Believe me, it *does* work. But I am afraid you have the trial version, which does not work with AVCHD. For that you need not only the full version, but also to add two update patches (well, an update patch and a Power Pack) which together make it VS11.5+ -- which works with AVCHD.

Mind you, the SD9 seems to be causing other users problems, for as yet unexplained reasons. One has just sent me an entire DVD filled with SD9 video he 'captured' using VS11.5+. But he has other problems with it. I will be working on it tomorrow, and will report back.

Astacus · Post by **Astacus** » Mon May 26, 2008 10:55 am

Thank you , Ken

Have to say that is not, then, to my mind, a 'trial' version. At the moment, I'm in two minds whether to take the camera back, or try a different package. Panasonic 'bundle' a trial version of Pinnacle (very generous of them!). I'll explore whether the patches can be applied to the TBYB package, but from what you say, it doesn't seem likely.

Much appreciated

pangwu · Post by **pangwu** » Mon May 26, 2008 10:58 am

Hi,

I have shared my SD9 experience before. Since you're trying SD9 AVCHD file in VS11.5, can you also check if you experience any problem when using slider to fast forward video in preview window or fast forward using slider in multi-trim preview window. My case is "CRASH" whenever the AVCHD file is more than 1mins. Doing just conversion from AVCHD to MPEG-2 has no problem.

P.S. The AVCHD file encoding quality is 17Mbps.

pangwu · Post by **pangwu** » Mon May 26, 2008 11:02 am

Btw, I want to mention 1 thing. Importing SD9 AVCHD file in VS 11.5 is fine. No problem experiences. As mentioned, only crash when using slider in preview window (including multi-trim) to make fast forward

Astacus · Post by **Astacus** » Mon May 26, 2008 7:44 pm

Thanks for the input. I am, at the moment, totally depressed by this. I consider myself computer literate, but cannot get ulead 11.5 to load AVCHD, and Pinnacle, whilst able to load, shows dropped frames, and is incredibly slow.

At the moment, I am (against my better judgement) tempted to take the SD9 back to the store, and revert to something less good. How can hardware and data formats like this be released without software support? Do most just replay their raw video, without editing, on a TV?

Grump!

BTW, system: Quad core, 4GB RAM, fast diak..should be up to date (SP2). I have installed real player, quicktime and dirctX 9. Anything else?

OS Name Microsoft Windows XP Professional
Version 5.1.2600 Service Pack 2 Build 2600
System Manufacturer System manufacturer
System Model P5E WS Pro
System Type X86-based PC
Processor x86 Family 6 Model 23 Stepping 6 GenuineIntel ~3005 Mhz
Processor x86 Family 6 Model 23 Stepping 6 GenuineIntel ~3005 Mhz
Processor x86 Family 6 Model 23 Stepping 6 GenuineIntel ~3005 Mhz
Processor x86 Family 6 Model 23 Stepping 6 GenuineIntel ~3005 Mhz
BIOS Version/Date American Megatrends Inc. 0603, 06/03/2008
SMBIOS Version 2.4
Total Physical Memory 4,096.00 MB
Available Physical Memory 2.46 GB
Total Virtual Memory 2.00 GB
Available Virtual Memory 1.96 GB

Xyzzy2 · Post by **Xyzzy2** » Mon May 26, 2008 10:43 pm

Maybe there is some kind of codec collision?

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon May 26, 2008 10:58 pm

Have to say that is not, then, to my mind, a 'trial' version.

I can only say I agree and sympathise with you. I have been saying for quite some time that it is unrealistic, to say the least, for Corel not to have changed their trial version to reflect the fundamental changes made last November with the update patch and Power Pack. Many new users, and old boys with new toys like me, are moving into high definition, and many are buying these seemingly wondrous new AVCHD cameras, only to find that the software (and computers that can actually process and play it) are scarce on the ground. And when one, like VS11.5+, claims that it can, the trial version does not have the necessary bells and whistles. Hopefully, the trial version of the forthcoming VS12 will not have this defect...

I am afraid I also believe that the time of AVCHD is still coming, but has not yet fully arrived. I also agree with you that it seems unconscionable for camera manufacturers to release these cameras on an unsuspecting public, knowing that there is a paucity of programs out there which can actually process the video.

And finally, I can only repeat what you have found out the hard way, and which pangwu has also confirmed, that the S9 camera in particular seems to produce a version of AVCHD which causes even the patched VS11.5+ on powerful computers to have certain difficulties with it. Moreover, my initial experimenting with the S9 AVCHD sent to me by another user has revealed the same problem described by pangwu. In addition, simply playing it in Project mode caused my VS11.5+, and indeed the whole computer, to crash and freeze respectively, the first two times I tried it. The third time, after rebooting, VS started playing it back in Project mode almost frame by frame for a few seconds, then speeded up to normal motion, but crashed again after 1 minute 16 seconds and 22 frames. So there seems to be some fundamental conflict here.

Without wanting to sound unduly alarmist, I too would be giving some serious consideration to taking the camera back if you can. I only bought my own high def camera a couple of months ago. But in making up my mind what to buy, I very specifically ruled out AVCHD in general because of uncertain nature of support for it. In this regard, if you agree with my thinking, you also have to be careful of hard disk cameras, as many of the newer ones are using AVCHD as their format, filmed to hard disk rather than a large SD card.

In the end, I went for the Canon HV20 (there is also a Sony equivalent) which films to the tried and true mini DV cassette. It films using the HDV format which is a high definition version of mpeg-2 (using the .m2t extension). Download of the video is in real time, which some may regard as a negative factor. However, it is done over firewire which is also tried and trusted technology. Editing seems to be easy and hassle-free. You can downconvert to the very secure and editable DV format if intending to produce a standard def DVD at some stage. And, as I have discovered to my pleasure, I can export the edited HDV back to the camera, and connect it direct to my high def TV via HDMI to play back in all its high def glory!

And I have also found -- somewhat ironically in current circumstances -- that I can convert it to AVCHD format and record this to a standard DVD (rather than Blu-Ray) and play it back in high definition in a Blu-Ray rated player, which includes the Sony PlayStation 3 (whose game discs of course come on Sony-made Blu-Ray discs!)

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon May 26, 2008 11:05 pm

Maybe there is some kind of codec collision?

This is a very real possibility which I don't rule out, though am not sure what to do about. I well recall that in the past there were quite a few Panasonic SD cameras using the DV format which had problems which were, at least partly, traceable to the Panasonic DV codec. This codec was apparently a little different from the 'standard' DV codec included in Windows which successive versions of VS have used.

On the other hand, other Panasonic users, on web forums not associated with Ulead products, seemed to think the sun shone out of the Panasonic codec...!

In this case, we would need to ascertain whether there is an installation disc which came with the S9 which installs a Panasonic AVCHD codec. Or indeed whether Panasonic releases such a codec on their website. I haven't yet checked, but when I get time, I will do so...

pangwu · Post by **pangwu** » Tue May 27, 2008 1:55 am

To provide more details. SD9 comes with a bundled software called "HD Writer 2.5e". This software has no problem in playback, cutting, and converting AVCHD to MPEG-2. The only complaint to "HD Writer 2.5e" is not user-friendly and advanced. It is a very simple software.

As for the Panasonic codec potential issue, I have 1 thought. 2-3 months ago, I went to a showroom and took some video samples from SD9. The video duration were around 2 mins. At that time, I used VS 11.5 to perform playback and cutting. Experienced no problem. So I made up my mind to purchase SD9. But later on, I found out the crash symptons and workaround it by converting AVCHD to MPEG-2 using "HD Writer". Here I want to mention there is no problem of using VS 11.5 to do the converstion. But after doing several testing, seems like "HD Writer" produces less artifacts than VS 11.5 (less observable small squares). Coming back to the topic. I realized some conflicts and made further comparison with the showroom videos and latest captured videos. I found out 1 significant difference. The encoding bit rate was different as reported from VS 11.5 video properties. The one worked ok reported about 13Mbps. Later videoes which experienced crashed reported about 17Mbps. So I suspect VS 11.5 might not be able to handle 17Mbps encoding bit rate at the moment. If encoding bit rate is 13Mbps or lower, maybe there will have no problem.

Btw, for my case, playback AVCHD has no problem in VS 11.5. It is smooth and no crash. My PC config is as follows

CPU: 2.13GHz (overclock to 3.2GHz)
Hard disk: SATA II
RAM: 2GB RAM
Video card: Nvidia 7600GT

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue May 27, 2008 2:11 am

In doing a Google search, I find that indeed Panasonic has been working on not one, but two versions of the H.264 codec used for AVCHD. And I suspect that the one needed for the the S9 is called the AVC-Intra codec. This is because the S9 introduced the first full HD resolution in its AVCHD output (i.e. 1920 x 1080 as opposed to the 1440 x 1080 used by Sony and Canon AVCHD camcorders). It could thus very well be that the codec normally used by VS is meant for 1440 x 1080 avchd video. On the other hand, VS11.5+ gives you the option to choose 1920x1080 as the AVCHD output format in Share > Create Video File > AVCHD, and you can also set it as that in the burning module when you select AVCHD as the disc format. Mind you, that may just be up-converting the frame size using the standard H.264 codec, rather than editing/playing S9 footage which may in its own right require the special codec... At the end of the day, however, I have to admit that I have no real idea...

My experiments with the AVCHD sent to me all proved negative. The files all played back in Clip mode with no problem. But virtually anything else caused the program to abort and close. As I have already said, I have a Quad computer (see System button for details). Apart from the Project playback and multitrim crashes already mentioned, even playing it in Clip mode, and then pressing the pause button to begin dragging the slider foward, caused a crash. I originally had 7 clips in the project timeline. When I tried taking some of them out, it would reach a point after removing a couple, then it would crash. Removing a final one aborted 4 times in a row and I gave up. Playing back, in a new project, a single clip in Project mode made it to just over 3 minutes before it too crashed the program.

The bitrate question mentioned by pangwu may also be relevant. But I just don't know if the H.264 codec used by VS is pegged to the older standard which used to have IIRC 18000 kbps as the absolute maxium bitrate for AVCHD. However, as I understand it, that was raised internationally by the relevant standards board to 24000 kbps some time last year. And taken together with the codecs being developed by Panasonic, this could just mean that S9 video is too advanced for VS11.5+'s standard AVCHD codec to handle.

pangwu -- can you use GSpot or some other program to find if you have a codec on your computer which either has the name AVC-Intra or Panasonic associated with it, apart from the standard H.264 one, please? And could you also tell me if your captured files use the .m2ts or .mts extension? The video mentioned above which was sent to me used .mts, but earlier video sent by another S9 user had the .m2ts extension.

pangwu · Post by **pangwu** » Tue May 27, 2008 6:37 am

The following is my case for reading AVCHD in VS 11.5 (if I recall it right)

1) Using SDHC card reader to import .mts through VS 11.5. The AVCHD file will be converted to .m2ts file. No problem on playback. But just crash when fast forwarding

2) Directly drag .mts file from SDHC reader into VS 11.5 timeline. Again, no problem on playback but experienced problem when fast forwarding.

For codec, I'll check it when home. Can you tell me what software can be used and where to get it.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue May 27, 2008 8:48 am

Frankly, I don't know exactly what software might help. If you do a Google search, you will see what I mean. Most of the so-called solutions involve converting the AVCHD to some other non-high def format, including DV, SD mpeg-4, WMV and even SD mpeg-2. Adobe Premiere Pro 3 does not seem to accept AVCHD files as input, though it can output AVCHD in separate video and audio files, the video file having the extension .m4v which VS11.5+ cannot 'see'. (I have come up against this myself.) Sony Vegas, both the full version and the Movie Studio Platinum versions are supposed to be able to deal with AVCHD. I only have the trial version of Movie Studio, and I have not been able to find any reference to AVCHD, though it is supposed to be there. Mind you, I don't know anything about the program, so maybe I am just not looking at the right place.

On one of the forums which I looked at, one guy said he had managed to get the Panasonic Pro codec I mentioned above and that it worked. But he said it was not easy to find, and he first had to download the drivers for one of the Panasonic Pro series of AVCHD cameras before he could access it. It was also not clear which program it worked with...

Astacus · Post by **Astacus** » Tue May 27, 2008 2:32 pm

I appreciate the continued interest, but am increasingly depressed!

The SD9 is a lovely camera...but without video editing..what's the point?

Anyway, I have bought the full version of the software..

I also used voltaicHD and successfully converted my AVCHD to AVI.

I have two choices:

Take the camera back and go back to simple HD. I'm reluctant to move away from disk or solid state, as the MiniDV serial access was a disincentive to experiment on my previous camera (SOny PC120E). I'd appreciate knowing of there is any non AVCHD (or AVCHD as an option) solid state camera out there?

Stick with the SD9, use non HD editing for now, and expect that the problems will be solved. Is this too foolish an expectation?

What would you guys do?

Thanks
Rob

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Tue May 27, 2008 3:38 pm

How can hardware and data formats like this be released without software support? Do most just replay their raw video, without editing, on a TV?

I would say yes, most people probably do just show their raw video on the TV without any editing. Think about it. How many people do you know who own a video camera? I know a lot. How many people do you know who edit video? None of the people I know who own video cameras also edit their video. So what do you think will be marketed to the consumer masses...?

These new video formats are still in their infancy. Companies like Corel, Pinnacle, et al, in their rush to corner the market come out with software that has yet to be perfected for these new formats. Someday you probably will be able to edit these formats flawlessly. But until then somebody has to be the guinea pigs!