Record edited clips too Canon HG 10 then playback on HDTV?

[westlight]

I have a Canon HG 10, have edited several clips adding transitions, titles, stills and narration. Not sure any of that matters but there it is.

I do not have a HD-DVD burner or player, yet, and am thinking about getting a Blu-Ray burner and a PlayStation. (Suggestions appreciated)

Until then, does anyone know if it is possible to take that "project", render it and get it back on my HG 10 in a format that will playback on my TV via the HDMI cable?

I've not done so yet but I know you can playback the original clips from the camera on the TV but didn't know about the edited project.

This would be just a temp workaround not having the other gear.

Thanks!

ps I've converted the project to an mpeg 2 file already.

[Ken Berry]

Since the HG10 films in native 1,920x1,080 HD video, which then gets downconverted and interlaced to 1,440x1,080 AVCHD format, I guess the idea would be to transfer the AVCHD to your computer, edit it, then Share > Create Video File > AVCHD using the same properties as the original video throughout. Then you would simply transfer it back to the hard disk in your camera in the same format, link up via the HDMI connection and it should play back...

[sjj1805]

.........
Until then, does anyone know if it is possible to take that "project", render it and get it back on my HG 10 in a format that will playback on my TV via the HDMI cable? .......

The abilitity to render a video back to a camcorder not only varies between different camcorders but also according to Region.
Here in the U.K. the Inland Revenue charge more tax on a camcorder that has that ability and so it is normal in the U.K. for that option to be disabled by the camcorder manufacturer. Sometimes you can get hold of (illegal) software that enables that option but more often than not it has been physically disabled and you would need a soldering iron and wiring diagram and know what it is your doing. You would be more likely to end up breaking the camcorder and voiding the warranty.

[westlight]

I did create an avchd test clip. I wasn't able to play it on my PC, at least not without severe stutters, but playing it on my PC was not the intent.

The file had the extension .mpg. Unfortunately I deleted it as not knowing enough about HD formats I figured this was an incorrect file extension for my HG 10.

The original files created by the camera are .mts which get re-named m2ts when imported to my PC via the supplied transfer software. This software does have the option to transfer back to the camera so that's not an issue. Canon states not to access the hard drive of the camera directly via Explorer, etc.

Am I missing something regarding the file extension? Is the .mts a Canon specific format as it seems I've read somewhere that different manufacturers create their own coding, if I'm stating that correctly.

Thanks for the replies. I thought the US taxed everything but it would appear the Brits have taken it an extra step! I'm sure they have a perfectly legit reason for not wanting you to make full use of your video cam! "Lobbyist?"

[Ken Berry]

Unfortunately our usual High Def guru, etech, has been missing in action for several weeks now. I am loath to get into the details myself as I am just not experienced enough yet with high def video, though am working on it.

My understanding of it, albeit simple, is that .mts is the original AVCHD format and it is used by a variety of cameras, and not just Canon. I think Sony and Panasonic both developed their own versions of it originally, but then sullied their reputations by not having software which would recognise it or transcode it to something else which programs *could* use.

Video with the .m2ts extension is very similar to the original .mts and is in effect a transport stream (TS) version of mpeg-2. But .m2ts comes with all the correct coding signals, packets, tags/flags etc which are completely consistent with the new international Blu-Ray standard. There are some Blu-Ray players out there capable of playing raw .mts files, but not all of them can do so because of the coding differences in it. Hence the need for conversion by programs like Video Studio (and most of the other well known ones that can handle AVCHD) of .mts to .m2ts which strips out some of the original coding of the .mts and replaces it with coding consistent with the Blu-Ray standard. This does not entail any quality loss.

The main downside as far as I can see is that by capturing and transcoding .mts to .m2ts, once you edit it and Share it out to a new file, that new file is, logically enough, also in .m2ts format ready to go on a Blu-Ray disc if that is your ultimate goal. But as far as I am aware, the same programs which can convert from .mts to .m2ts are one way only. In other words, once you have an .m2ts file, there is no way to convert it back to .mts format.

If anyone in fact knows of a way to do so, I would be most eager to hear of it. The significance, as I have only recently found, is that if you can't convert .m2ts back to the native .mts format of the camera, there is no way of exporting your edited video back to the AVCHD camera so that you can connect it to a high def TV via HDMI to play back your new masterpieces that way, if you don't have a Blu-Ray burner and discs.

[westlight]

I think I figured out a way to get the "masterpiece" back on the HG-10 and play it on my HD TV.

After creating the AVCHD file, extension .mpg I had to rename the file with something the camera, or transfer software would recognize. I also changed the file extension too .M2TS. Example: "20080426111111.M2TS". (year/month/date/11111) I then copied the file to a folder that the transfer software created when I downloaded the original files to my PC. The software is what came with the camera, "Corel Guide Menu". I clicked the "Transfer to Camera" button, located the file and all went well. It took a few tries. Seems the file name, the extension change and the folder were all critical for the software to find the file.

I played the edited video on my TV and it looked great! Lost the sound but I think that's just a problem with the stereo system/hook-up. I'm waiting for a HDMI cable so had to use the Component cable. I didn't have time to mess with the stereo but I plugged headphones into the camera and the sound was their.

This is just a temporary fix to not having the Blu-Ray burner or player, yet, but it works.

[Ken Berry]

Thanks. Good to know. I am intrigued, though, as to why you say you changed the extension. What was it before the change -- .mpg?

[westlight]

The extension after creating the AVCHD file was .mpg. So, as to why I changed it...because I do not have a clue as to what I'm doing so thought I would give it a try! Seriously. I knew the extension of the files imported from the camera are .M2TS, which the program apparently changes upon import from .MTS, if I'm not mistaken. The Corel Guide software, used to import, would not recognize the files without the name change, or when placed in a folder I created which is why I tried placing it in a folder created by the software upon import to my PC. Trial and...many errors. I'm tenacious.

On another matter and I'm sure this is posted somewhere. When importing still images into a clip is there a "best size" to use. I've been inserting rather large files, and again this is a HD "materpiece".

Right now the files are about 30 MB's each, and there are about thirty stills within a 35 min. video. The actual size of each image varies depending on cropping but are approx. 4188 x 2438 @320 ppi. They look great but am I increasing the rendering process time greatly by having this size of file?

If interested here is a link to some scaled down Flash clips from the current project. I'm working on the polar bear, full length version right now. http://www.westlight.net/video_gallery.html

Thanks!

[Quijote]

I am SO glad that you have succeeded at this. I tried to use Guide Menu to transfer an AVCHD file back to my HG10, but the camera couldn't see it and the only way I am going to get it off the camera disk is to reformat. I will use your method and see if it comes through.

By the way, one of the things that I read about AVCHD is that Canon uses a slightly different algorithm from Sony when compressing the stream coming in from the lens - Canon has variable size blocks of data and, when there are large areas of solid color, Canon references the same color for the large block, thereby increasing the effective compression. When there is lots of fine data, it uses normal size (smaller) blocks. Of course, data coming back from the computer doesn't do this, so a stream having made a round trip from camera to computer and back again would probably be a larger file. I'm repeating what I read from memory, so don't hold me to a high standard of expertise.
http://www.sailingflamenco.com

[westlight]

Glad it helped. There may be a simpler way of doing this but... Please post your results and any variations to my process, if any.

One thing I did notice when viewing the "preview thumbnail" on the camera as viewfinder once the file was transferred back. The clip just shows a blank box with a question mark in it. Again, the playback on the TV and in the cameras viewfinder was great.

Good luck!

[Quijote]

Argggghhhhhh....!

I've spent the last hour trying this. I created a new AVCHD file and tested it in WinDVD. Then I renamed it 20080405162004.M2TS (date and time). When I went to Corel Guide Menu, I saw the file, blacked out as you said it would be, selected it and clicked "Write back to Camcorder". It went 4 seconds into the process and then popped up an error box saying "The camcorder is not operating normally. Disconnect the USB cable and check the camcorder".

Sooooo, I disconnected the USB cable and shot a new test video. I then captured that test video to the computer, so we know that incoming video works. I tried to write back to the camera again - same error message. I noted that Guide Menu has a date for the file based on the actual time it was written in the computer and saved by the OS. So I renamed to exactly that time and tried again. NO!

Any ideas about what I am missing here.......

[Quijote]

One more quick question - did you render your AVCHD file to 1920X1080 or 1440X1080. I did mine 1440X1080 and maybe that is what is wrong.

[Ken Berry]

As I said above, the HG10 films in native 1,920x1,080 HD video format. So I would think it might have to be in that format size for the camera to be able to see it properly. But westlight might have a different take on that...

[westlight]

Hi Quijote,
Sorry for the Argghhhh's!
I'm not at home on the PC that I used to transfer the file but here's what I can remember.

!!!You mentioned that the file was "blacked out" when you went to select it in Corel Guide to transfer back to the camera. Mine was not. It looked just like all the other files in that folder. Where it was blank (no thumbnail image) was in the viewfinder of the camera once the file had been transferred back to the camera. There was a question mark within a frame around it but it played just fine both in the camera an one the TV.

I did create an AVCHD file in VS11 using Share>Create Video File>AVCHD>1040x1080. I saved it to my hard drive.

I then changed the .mpg extension to.M2TS, gave it a file name with the (year/month/date/11111) "1111" was just an arbitrary number. I then moved that file to a folder that Corel Guide had made when I originally transferred the files from the camera to the PC. I made sure that I gave it a name with the same number of digits as ones already transferred to the PC and made sure I placed it in a folder Guide had created on the PC. I imagine it would have been easier to have saved the ACVHD file to that folder to begin with but at the time I created it I didn't know what would work. This was all just me not knowing what made a difference.

Ken- I'm guessing that the native format is actually 1440x1080. That's what shows up in the properties window when I right click on one of the thumbnails in the Library. I read in a forum posting somewhere that Canon was "misrepresenting" what the cameras capabilities are. I don't have the camera here with me but that's what I've come up with. Here's a link and an outake from that discussion.

>>>>Link: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.p ... 215&page=2

>>>
The title of this thread has been changed from "Canon HG10 - Finally FULL 1920x1080" to "Canon HG10 - High Def HDD camcorder shipping in October." I have confirmed through Canon USA that the forthcoming HG10 does NOT record AVCHD at 1920 x 1080. It records, just like its sister camcorder the DVD-based HR10, at 1440 x 1080 anamorphic. This is contrary to what Engadget mistakenly reported when they said:

"Unlike their first AVCHD recorder (the HR10) the HG10 records 1,920 x 1,080 video to a 40GB disk drive instead of a DVD platter."

Actually the only difference in recording between the Canon HG10 and HR10 is that the HG10 records to an internal hard drive while the HR10 records to Mini DVD optical media... other than that, they both record AVCHD at 1440 x 1080 anamorphic, which of course is automatically scaled by any 1080i HDTV as 1920 x 1080, which may have been the source of the confusion.

It is in fact recording AVCHD at 1440 x 1080, just like HDV and HDCAM. Hope this helps,
__________________
CH

[Quijote]

Hello Westlight,
While you were away I re-rendered the file to 1920x1080 in the chance that the format was what was keeping me locked out. That one wouldn't load either. Same error. Both the 1440 and the 1920 versions of the file show as blacked out in the Guide Menu. A little test file that I shot and captured shows up correctly in that window. Incidentally, that test file is 1440x1080. I deleted the test shot on the camcorder and then tried to write it back - same error. I have been super compulsive about the methodology - I have the Guide Menu pdf open as I worked to verify each step. The camera says that it has 27GB free.

Ah-hah - while I was writing to you, I was trying things - desperate things. I reformatted the hard disk on the camera and voila, it is currently copying the 1440x1080 files. It is doing it. I think some of my earlier efforts put some kind of junk on the camera that caused it to be unable to transfer. I wonder if I should try the 1920x1080 file, just to advance the learning level. OK, its writing that one too! I just realized why these videos show up black in the Guide Menu thumbnail - because the titles fade in from black, so black is frame 1.

Final report - the 1440x1080 file plays fine. The 1920x1080 file won't play. But all is well that ends well. Thanks for the support from all of you.