Ulead VS9 - Picture on Preview Monitor disappears on Play

Granddad · Post by **Granddad** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:07 am

Hi Trevor

I presume Ken will read your posting and will accept your thanks as coming from me also.

So, phew! Information and comments from both of you force me to reconsider all my previous video efforts.

I will try to post details (using your procedure) of my present stock of clips, (mpeg-2 format), captured some time ago.

I will also post details of a video produced yesterday (Share, Create Video File, Custom) using VS9, (Microsoft AVI format). This latter video has been accepted perfectly by my slide show Producer 3, (huge progress)

but I'm not sure my settings, as far as I could choose them, were ideal. For example the file size seems too large. Bit rate?

Your comments will be much appreciated.

Granddad

PS: I appreciate Ken's reassurances about Granddaddyship - at 85 my main concern is to keep waking up each day until I get my video projects finished! About which I am increasingly optimistic

MPEG files
24 Bits, 480 x 576, 25 fps
Frame-based
(MPEG-2), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 2516 kbps)
Audio data rate: 224 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 44.1 KHz, Stereo

Microsoft AVI files
24 Bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
Frame-based
Uncompressed
PCM, 48.000 kHz, 16 Bit, Stereo

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Post by **Ken Berry** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 3:39 am

... and here I am in person!!!

First, you say your AVI clips are large, but you don't give an indicative size of one of the files. With the length given in seconds, knowing the size of the file would allow us to work out exactly what type of AVI it is. However, that being said, I suspect it is indeed either a raw, uncompressed AVI (which are huge, at about 65 GB per hour of video) or, more likely, a DV/AVI which is also large at around 13 GB per hour of video.

In other words, don't worry about the size at this end of the AVI scale. And if indeed it is DV/AVI, then quality-wise that is possibly the best in the standard definition world.

I note also it is Frame Based. But from my comments above, you will see that this is fine for a slideshow (at least one without video clips inserted).

However, I see that the mpeg properties you give contain a couple of anomalies. The first is the frame size (480 x 576). Can you confirm that again, please. Unfortunately, it is not one of the frame sizes which conforms to the international PAL DVD standard. However, it is the standard PAL frame size for an SVCD (a better quality version of the old VCD which is burned to a CD rather than a DVD...)

I am not sure what to suggest about that. If you convert that to DVD-compatible mpeg-2 frame size for PAL (720 x 576), the program would have to invent 240 extra pixels out of thin air to pad out the width. That would mean loss of quality. I guess, though, that you could always convert down to half-frame size (360 x 283) and probably retain better quality.

However, I note that you also say that the mpegs are Frame Based. As also noted above, that is fine if you only play those mpegs on your computer monitor or on a progressive scan digital TV. However, otherwise, they will need to be converted to either Upper or Lower Field First.

But the good news is that if you are not planning to use video from any other source, then it doesn't matter whether you choose Upper or Lower Field First for your full project. You only need to maintain the chosen field order throughout. Or if you use other video sourced from elsewhere, then first ascertain what Field Order it uses, and then use that Field Order for the entire project.

Granddad · Post by **Granddad** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:23 am

And again....

Hope I've got it right this time - details for before and after for a new example.

I had seen the anomolies in the mpeg file. The firm that originally digitised my films described the output as DVD. Perhaps they are SVCD. Anyway here is all the detail I can find.

As Captured off DVD
FILE
Format: MPEG-2
File Size: 4,432 KB
Duration: 13.8 Secs
VIDEO
Type: MPEG-2 Video, Lower Field First
Total Frames: 345
Attributes: 24 Bits, 480x576, 4:3
Frame Rate: 25
Data Rate: 2376 kbps
AUDIO
Type: MPEG Audio Layer 2 Files
Tot Samples: 608,580
Attributes: 44100 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo
Bit Rate: 224 kbps

Resultant Video FILE
Microsoft AVI files -- OpenDML
File Size 421,835 KBytes
Frame Rate 25 fps
Duration 13.8 Seconds
Data Rate 30562.50 kbps

VIDEO
Uncompressed
24 Bits, 720 x 576,
Total Frames 345

AUDIO
PCM, 48.000 kHz, 16 Bit, Stereo
Total Samples 661,461

In VS when creating the video some horizontal line 'structure' was visible. This did not show up in the Slide show.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:24 am

Thanks. When you say 'captured off the the DVD', I wonder exactly what you mean. Are the video files on the DVD is separate files which you simply transfer over to your computer, and already have the .mpg extension? If that is the case, then it is a data DVD and not a video DVD, even though the files on it are video files. That at least would explain how come they are in SVCD format.

Or does the DVD have a proper video DVD structure i.e. with two Folders on it labelled Audio_TS and Video_TS, with the audio one empty, and the Video_TS one filled with files with .vob, .bup and .ifo extensions?

Second, I note now that the mpegs are using Lower Field First, which is good since we now at least know which field order to use for your projects.

But the AVI details deepen the mystery side of things somewhat. 422 MB for a 14 second clip indicates about 100 GB for an hour of that video, which is humungously huge -- well over the size usually given for raw uncompressed AVI (65 GB per hour) even substracting a bit for the audio included in it. So I am at a loss

So can you give us a bit more detail of exactly how you are going about producing these AVIs? And in particular, what the project properties are and if the output properties in any way vary from them.

Can you also confirm that your Producer 3 program will not accept the mpegs as they are?

Granddad · Post by **Granddad** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:10 am

Ken, I'm beginning to feel guilty about being so thick about all this. I should have seen the need for providing better information.
Looks like a proper DVD, (but I wonder about the odd frame size).
VIDEO_TS.BU
VIDEO_TS.IF(
VTS_01_O.BU
VTS_01_O.IFC
VTS_01_1
VTS 01 2
I had a reply from Photodex about converting files to a suitable form for Producer.
They recommended using G Spot & an encoding programme called SUPER. I downloaded these programmes and had a preliminary look. I will apply their recipe (below) with SUPER tomorrow. (I'm sure you will know about this software)

1. Output Container: AVI
2. Output Video Codec: XviD or DivX
3. Output audio codec: MP2

All they knew about my files was that they were mpeg-2. I suppose they rely on Gspot to check this. I will try out this approach tomorrow.

Producer will not accept my mpegs as they are. And Windows Media player will not play them either.

Continued thanks.
Granddad

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:12 am

SUPER and GSpot are well known to us, and indeed are included in our list of 'free stuff'.

And yes, the sort of structure is certainly a video DVD, but I remain at a loss as to how you imported them in non-standard DVD format, but SVCD instead. I cannot think of a way in which they were burned to a video DVD with that frame size. Did you use Video Studio or some other program to import them into your computer from the DVD? Did you by any chance use the default 'mpeg-2' setting in VS9 for your project properties (as opposed to using the DVD setting)? Since VS10, at least, that default mpeg-2 setting has been consistent with DVD standards, but in VS9 and earlier versions, the mpeg-2 was more likely to be the SVCD standard... For that matter, did you actually use VS9 to import them from the DVD?

I am now totally at a loss to know why they recommended you use the DivX/XVid format. That is a very highly compressed format. It can produce good quality, but it is really like mpeg-4. And once again, to burn it to DVD eventually, or even use it in Producer 3 which will burn a DVD, it will have to be uncompressed, with data invented out of thin air and a potentially significant loss in quality. I urge you to simply ignore that advice from Photodex...

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 1:28 pm

Hi

Sorry for the delay in replying, the time difference means I am in bed when you are on the forum, well most of the time. But it does mean you get 24/7 help.
I have read the replies and agree with all the comments, to continue with Kens thoughts:-

I always thought that Svcd files were burned to a CD type disc not a DVD, I may be wrong.
I will run a test to see if Svcd will burn to DVD.

OK

Exactly how did you get the dvd files to your pc.

Using VS 9 ¡V File-Insert Media Files to Timeline-Insert DVD/DVD-VR¡K

This option should import the dvd files, given you the choice of ¡¥chapters¡¦ or ¡¥titles¡¦
Select the ¡¥title¡¦ option

This should import the files to your working folder, inserting a thumbnail to the timeline.
There should be no re-coding, what you have on the dvd is what you get in the working folder.

Is this the process you used?

Now for a few tests.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:00 pm

Hi

I am unable to create a DVD using Svcd files, which was to be expected.

If your original disc is a DVD then where has the Svcd files come from?

Your details of the DVD TS folder content appears ok.

The following may help in identifying the original files.

On your DVD the files marked VTS_01_1.VOB and VTS_01_2.VOB are the video files.

Copy one of these to your hard drive, the second one will be smaller, quicker to copy.
Now rename the file from VTS_01_2.VOB to VTS_01_2.MPG

Insert the file to a NEW project, select details from the info window.
Post the right hand panel info to the forum.

Note :-Renaming Vob files usually works but not with all files????????????

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:29 pm

I have copies of ProShow Gold v2 and also Proshow Producer V2.6 Perhaps a bit out of date now but that's because I don't use them anymore - I stick to my Ulead (Corel) programs.

You are doing it back to front.
Instead of producing a video with VideoStudio and then passing that to your slide show in ProShow Producer - do it the other way. Create your slide show in ProShow Producer and then pass that to VideoStudio for inclusion in your Video Project.

Granddad · Post by **Granddad** » Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:18 pm

Ken & Trevor

Now that I have entered the complex world of Video, and am at last learning a few facts at the hands of my long suffering tutors, I think the following has been missing.

First a brief resume: My 8mm films were put on to DVD by a local company with the understanding that I wanted to edit them on my PC, firstly to extract short videos for inclusion in already existent slide shows, and secondly, later, to make movies for placing on DVD. That was 3 years ago. A friend led me to "ImTOO DVD Ripper 2.0", which I used to produce my present collection of "mpeg-2" files. They have remain in 'storage' on my PC since then until late last year. I cannot remember the settings used, but looking now at the available Output Format it must have been "Super Video CD (MPEG2)". Not a good choice. And that is to say nothing of what the other settings might have been. Probably all set at default. Looking now at ImTOO I see that its Input/Output Settings Help files don't fully match the Settings Screens anyway!

Next move

Probably consider ditching my 'mpeg-2' files. Now that I have VS9 I can go back to my original DVDs. Before doing that I will need to digest your earlier advice.

Ken:
Thanks - I accept your advice re the Photodex suggestions. I had not seen the connection between inserted video settings and the final DVD output from Producer. Thanks.

Trevor:
Regarding your (following) suggestion -

"On your DVD the files marked VTS_01_1.VOB and VTS_01_2.VOB are the video files.

Copy one of these to your hard drive, the second one will be smaller, quicker to copy.
Now rename the file from VTS_01_2.VOB to VTS_01_2.MPG

Insert the file to a NEW project, select details from the info window.
Post the right hand panel info to the forum. "

VS9 will not accept VTS_01_2.MPG. It gives a "file format mismatch" for VTS_01_2.MPG.VOB even though VOB does not appear in the actual file name.

Regards
Granddad

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 12:13 am

Right.....
Grab hold of your original DVD's that you had created by the company who converted your 8mm films.

Now start VideoStudio and follow this procedure to extract the files into a format that VideoStudio can work with.
VS : Importing DVD Files

Now that you have your video files I take it that you want to merge them with one or more slide shows. Although you can do all of this in VideoStudio, you will probably find that creating the slide show is easier in ProShow Producer because you are already familiar with that program.

Open ProShow Producer and create your slide show.
Export the slide show as follows

This will create a MPG video of your slide show suitable for you to import into your VideoStudio Project.

Granddad · Post by **Granddad** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:34 am

Hi sjj1805 & all.

My goodness - I didn't expect that!

I'm about to trial your suggestion for the Slide Show. My version of Producer 3.2.2047 offers in Video Format Preset: TYPE: (DVD,HD, Video CD, AVI, PC, Custom). QUALITY: (High Quality Maximum, High Quality Safe, Standard Play, Long Play). TV SYSTEM: (PAL , NTSC).

Producer's Video File Creation Help does not help much. Settings of DVD & PAL are OK but Quality.

Presumably this will affect file size so I will compromise on High Quality Safe.

With those settings this is what VS tells me I have. Looks like success. Excited.

MPEG files
24 Bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
Lower Field First
(DVD-PAL), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 9200 kbps)
Audio data rate: 224 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

This test Video plays back perfectly in VS, (I still have to mute the Video Clip Vol!)

That was a small Video. Several of my existing slide shows are large (c 160 slides, without video additions). I wonder how they will go. Any advice on settings for my new 'ripping' of my DVDs with VS. I don't want to proceed until I'm sure - also do you think it would be wise to wait until VS12 arrives?

Regards
Granddad

PS: Sorry Trevor - you will be sound asleep in UK now.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 8:53 am

Hi

Wow, now things start to make sense.

You said:- Any advice on settings for my new 'ripping' of my DVDs with VS.

Start a new project.
Allocate a working folder on your hard drive.
Right click the time
Select Insert DVD/DVD-VR¡K
Browse and select the dvd drive. Click ok

An import window will open.
Select all ¡¥title¡¦ options (at this point there is usually a long pause)
Select ¡¥Import¡¦ lower right.

My only concern is can VS read your discs having had problems reading the re-named Vob files.
Only one way to find out, give it a try.

If successful you will get the info window as the files insert to the timeline, select details to view.

PS double check the re- named of the VTS_01_2.MPG file, make sure the extension is .mpg

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:16 pm

Sorry Steve , just noticed that you provided a link to VS : Importing DVD Files
http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic.php?t=13200

Granddad have a look at the tutorial from Ken.

The resulting video files use the same settings as the DVD.

Granddad · Post by **Granddad** » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:04 am

Hi Trevor

I have imported (using DVD/DVD-VR) as you suggested. The results in VS9 after: New Project File: Timeline: Details: are as below

Video file (A)
MPEG files
24 Bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
UPPER FIELD FIRST
(DVD-PAL), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 9500 kbps)
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

(ie all of the files from my original DVD are Upper Field First).

Now, for example, I Create a Video File in Producer and put in VS9 - result appearing in Details is...

Video File
MPEG files
24 Bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
LOWER FIELD FIRST
(DVD-PAL), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8000 kbps)
Audio data rate: 224 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

I find this confusing. As I see it, in VS9 I start a New Project and place Video file (A) on the timeline, go to Details and make a choice to change the Project settiings to those of the Video (A). At this point the Project has UPPER FIELD FIRST setting.

Now I create a video file in Producer, for example, and go through a similar procedure as above to the point where the Project settings are UPPER FIELD FIRST and the new video (from Producer) is LOWER FIELD FIRST. Now what do I do? Change the Project settings back to LOWER FIELD FIRST? And what if I import another file with setting requiring another change? Does it matter as long as at the end point, when I want to burn a DVD, everything has been processed with the same settings?

Am I as confused as I thiink I am? Am I still missing something?
Sorry.
Granddad