VS11.5 and HD DVD

alpine · Post by **alpine** » Sat Mar 15, 2008 9:45 pm

I've been experimenting with VS11.5 and writing HD material to red light DVDs.
The source is AVCHD output from a Panasonic camcorder and VS offers a nice set of output choices.

One choice is an AVCHD file. This works excellently. The only issue is the usual one that seems to put people off VS, that is that the programmers have forgotten to change the cursor to a busy hourglass at various points when it's working away under the covers. You have to get used to the mysterious pauses...Once you do that, it's fine!

The file the AVCHD choice produces works well into an HD TV from my media server. Because most of the output except for effects is smart rendered, there is no loss of definition and the output looks 100%.

There is a similiar 'AVCHD' choice for disk writing. Choosing it however produces a BluRay directory structure on the disk, and I assume that works OK on a BD player, it certainly plays as though it was a BD disk on my PC in PowerDVD. This setting appears simply to duplicate the BLuRay choice.

There is a further choice, HD DVD. Choosing this produces a standard HD DVD directory structure on the disk, but it is for some reason NOT possible to use smart rendering to get the output on to the disk. The only choice when setting up the render is to use the 'Ulead Mpeg NOW encoder': there is a dropdown box, but it has no further choices. This is of course completely unnecessary, since it should be possible to smart render the AVCHD output straight on to the disk, just as the BluRay setting allows. The MPEG encoder, even at its best settings, drops the resolution down very visibly. This seems very silly: is there a fix please?

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:11 pm

The MPEG encoder, even at its best settings, drops the resolution down very visibly. This seems very silly: is there a fix please?

This is not a bug, HD-DVD Format burnt to standard dvd's only works reliably using mpeg2 video. HD-DVD burnt to standard DVD's uses the HDV spec which is 25,000kbs Constant Bit Rate, Upper_Field_First (usually your source AVC/h264 videos are Upper_Field_First, (about 20 minutes per single sided dvd). So on the quality side you may be using different encoder settings or to low a bit-rate. High Definition mpeg2 video uses a much higher bit rate than avc/h264 video, almost double the bit-rate. for the same resolution (so they say). My results have been high definition mpeg2 video is slightly better originally recorded at HDV spec's than the avchd cams. This is only my opinion

AVC/H264 is also a compliant spec for HD-DVD, but appears to only playback correctly if you burn a real HD-DVD.(not a standard dvd in hd-dvd format). When creating HD-DVD's under the GEAR Icon also check ON "XDisc". The avc/h264 video will not be re-encoded if it's compliant. May not play correctly though. I've only been able to create HD-DVD's with mpeg2 video to work reliably.

I don't usually use Smart_Render for avc/h264 video. Usually ends up giving me problems, depends.
Also, I doubt that ulead will keep the HD-DVD burning feature in future releases. Instead of burning to HD-DVD one will burn the HD-Mpeg2 videos to a Blu-Ray Disk.

alpine · Post by **alpine** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 2:33 pm

etech6355 wrote:This is not a bug, HD-DVD Format burnt to standard dvd's only works reliably using mpeg2 video. HD-DVD burnt to standard DVD's uses the HDV spec which is 25,000kbs Constant Bit Rate, Upper_Field_First (usually your source AVC/h264 videos are Upper_Field_First, (about 20 minutes per single sided dvd). So on the quality side you may be using different encoder settings or to low a bit-rate. High Definition mpeg2 video uses a much higher bit rate than avc/h264 video, almost double the bit-rate. for the same resolution (so they say). My results have been high definition mpeg2 video is slightly better originally recorded at HDV spec's than the avchd cams. This is only my opinion

AVC/H264 is also a compliant spec for HD-DVD, but appears to only playback correctly if you burn a real HD-DVD.(not a standard dvd in hd-dvd format). When creating HD-DVD's under the GEAR Icon also check ON "XDisc". The avc/h264 video will not be re-encoded if it's compliant. May not play correctly though. I've only been able to create HD-DVD's with mpeg2 video to work reliably.

I don't usually use Smart_Render for avc/h264 video. Usually ends up giving me problems, depends.
Also, I doubt that ulead will keep the HD-DVD burning feature in future releases. Instead of burning to HD-DVD one will burn the HD-Mpeg2 videos to a Blu-Ray Disk.

To do the mpeg encodes I'm using the top bit rate VS11 allows, 29.4Mbps, but there is still a visible quality drop when compared side by side to the same input clips rendered to an AVCHD file and played from my media server to the same TV. I find Smartrender works well for this, you can see the render happening on the preview screen during effects transitions, but the shots themselves zap through unchanged. I set 'use first clip' to ensure the output is smart rendered.
If Ulead aren't going to continue to support HDDVD, then I'll stick with my current version: I see no reason to buy a BD player when I haven't got any BD movies...! And of course HDDVD players and movies are selling like hot cakes now the prices have come down.

Just trying this again with X disk on. But I think it's still transcoding everything, it's taking a looong time even on my Q6600

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:03 pm

Just trying this again with X disk on. But I think it's still transcoding everything, it's taking a looong time even on my Q6600

It shouldn't take along time at all.
Are you carrying the project from the timeline into the burning module?
If so when you go into the burning module remove that link that's carried over, it's not the actual video, it's the project file which always gets re-encoded (or smart-rendered).
When in the burning module to use the pass-through feature with compliant source videos use the Insert videos/media Icon and insert the compliant avc/h264 videos directly from the harddisk.

alpine · Post by **alpine** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:09 pm

Gave up on that try, I've just tried the other method of taking the AVCHD output file that works well on my media player and putting that straight into the burner tab, following an earlier post of yours and your comment above. This does work fast, and the EVO files on the DVD-RW come out the same length as the input files, but , as you suggest, when I play the file in my Tosh, it says it's an HD-DVD, but then 'cannot play video'.... A great pity: keeping the H264 all the way through would have allowed about an hour on the DVD! Mind you an hour of home movies can get boring.

I bet all it needs is a little tweak somewhere.

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:44 pm

Yes, I also was disappointed and had the same experience.

My first HD-DVD using avc/h264 video was mixed, the first file was mpeg2 video and the 2nd was avc/h264.
The mpeg2 video played but the avc/h264 stuttered when playing.
If I used avc/h264 then no play at all.

Nero seems to write mpeg4 avc/h264 for HD-DVD. Wanted to try that because maybe there was a difference in the H264 encoding. Problem I had with Nero was it forced me to use a very high avc bit-rate.

AB2008 · Post by **AB2008** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:05 pm

etech6355 wrote:Yes, I also was disappointed and had the same experience.

My first HD-DVD using avc/h264 video was mixed, the first file was mpeg2 video and the 2nd was avc/h264.
The mpeg2 video played but the avc/h264 stuttered when playing.
If I used avc/h264 then no play at all.

Nero seems to write mpeg4 avc/h264 for HD-DVD. Wanted to try that because maybe there was a difference in the H264 encoding. Problem I had with Nero was it forced me to use a very high avc bit-rate.

Yes, if you want to author HD DVD with AVC video files you cannot use AVCHD. It is not compatible with the HD DVD standard (this does have nothing to do with the media used!!!). However you can create AVC files (HD DVD compatibles) in Nero 8 and author them with Video Studio 11 without rencoding. The problem with Nero is that the minimum bitrate allowed in Nero in AVC encoding is 15,000 kbit/s, so your resulting file is very big...

alpine · Post by **alpine** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:33 pm

AB2008 wrote: The problem with Nero is that the minimum bitrate allowed in Nero in AVC encoding is 15,000 kbit/s, so your resulting file is very big...

It would be a lot smaller than Mpeg2! 15Mbps will give very good results with H264, which is what we're looking for. I wouldn't particularly want to go lower.

AB2008 · Post by **AB2008** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:59 pm

alpine wrote:
AB2008 wrote: The problem with Nero is that the minimum bitrate allowed in Nero in AVC encoding is 15,000 kbit/s, so your resulting file is very big...
It would be a lot smaller than Mpeg2! 15Mbps will give very good results with H264, which is what we're looking for. I wouldn't particularly want to go lower.

Not relly!!!

The problem with Nero is that the minimun bitrate for both encoders (mpeg2 and mpeg4) is 15,000 kbit/s, so there is not an advantage to use mpeg4. You will get similar results with longer encoding time if using mpeg4. However Video Studio 11 let you encode using mpeg2 with bitrate as low as 10,000 kbit/s getting aceptable results.
The really advantage would be if you can encode in mpeg4 with lower bitrate than mpeg2. That is the real benefit of using mpeg4. This type of encoding is more efficient than mpeg2 and let you get smaller files with better quality...

alpine · Post by **alpine** » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:27 pm

I'm afraid we will have to disagree. It is certainly true that H264, for a given quality will result in smaller files, but for my HD output, I'm not concerned with trying to squeeze time into a smaller space, I just want the best quality: quality that matches the quality of the input AVCHD files. I cannot achieve that with the mpeg2 codec that seems to be the only current way of producing a DVD that the Tosh HDDVD players will read OK.
Incidentally, I haven't got Nero 8, but I tried Nero 7Ultra for which I have the HD plugin. Recode 2 won't import the raw ex camera .MTS files, nor the output AVCHD .m2ts file that VS11.5+ makes.

AB2008 · Post by **AB2008** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 2:32 pm

alpine wrote:I cannot achieve that with the mpeg2 codec that seems to be the only current way of producing a DVD that the Tosh HDDVD players will read OK.
Incidentally, I haven't got Nero 8, but I tried Nero 7Ultra for which I have the HD plugin. Recode 2 won't import the raw ex camera .MTS files, nor the output AVCHD .m2ts file that VS11.5+ makes.

I uprade from Nero 7 to Nero 8, and yes you can create HD DVD encoding AVC files. In adition to Nero 8 you need the HD Plug in. However I get better results using the export option in Nero (creating a AVC file with AC3, HD DVD compliance) and authoring it in Video Studio11.
Using this procedure I can make a 100% compliance HD DVD (AVC) in DVD9/5 media acepted by my Toshiba A2 player...

alpine · Post by **alpine** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 3:03 pm

I take it ALL back. The Ulead team are truly wonderful!...

After my semi-success with the Nero intermediate step, I went back to the drawing board.
OK, so VS11.5 will take m2TS files and make an HDDVD out of them...
But I've been importing MTS clips raw from the camcorder.

It was then I remembered the application that comes with Panasonic camcorders, and a post in another forum years ago. I tried this application when I first got the camcorder, but all it seemed to do was recreate the same BDMV structure in a folder on the PC disk, and copy the files across. But someone had reported that the files on the PC produced by 'HD Writer' were M2TS file type, not MTS as they are on the SD card. From somewhere else I seem to remember reading that the difference between MTS and M2TS files was that the packets were a couple of bytes longer to accomodate a timecode.

So, this time I copied the SD card over to the PC using the Panasonic application.
Opened up a new project in VS11.5, imported the M2TS clips....
Created an HDDVD disk... EVO files!! It WORKS in the HDDVD player!!!! And with no stutters! No need for Nero...

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:09 pm

alpine,
There's one thing I don't understand, maybe the panasonic software is doing something different.
If you started a blu-ray project and used your source MTS files, then wrote a blu-ray harddisk structure you will find your avc/h264 videos in the STREAMS folder with an extension of M2TS. You source MTS videos shouldl not be re-encoded.
Not sure if that's doing the same as the panasonic software.
If you try this disable motion menus, background audio and transitions because the blu-ray format will use mpeg2 for those features.

The biggest reason I switched from HD-DVD to Blu-Ray/AVCHD was the actual format. I feel the blu-ray format is much more versatile than the HD-DVD (EVO) format. My videos are as large as 8gigs. On a HD-DVD this video gets broken up into 1 gig parts (the EVO containers). Using avc or mpeg2 on the HD-DVD doesn't matter, the containers are still 1 gig EVO files.
Getting the original files back off the HD-DVD is work, not easy.

When you make an AVCHD or Blu-Ray disk the same 8gig file stays intact as one video file, no splitting.
On an avchd or blu-ray disk you simply copy the videos from the disk back to you harddrive for re-authoring/editing etc. (Or, import the avchd disk using the ulead import dvd/-vr avchd disk feature) I have made many avchd disks now, all various resolutions & custom bit-rates. To get my original videos or any videos back from the these disks is very simple.
Sharing the High Definition disks is also much easier.

The blu-ray format also has many other advantages. I'm not talking about the blu-ray disk itself, I'm referencing the format. Such as you can put more than 1 video or audio track in a single M2TS Container. So one file can contain many audio tracks, 1 or more standard definition videos & one or more high definition videos (including closed captioning), in one file..
Maybe in the future ulead will have these advanced authoring features.
First we need the Blu-Ray burners and media to be less expensive.
I remember how expensive DVD writers and media were when they were introduced. I think a pack of 3 dvd's cost about $15.00 US Dollars.
That was $5.00 per disk for 4gigs.

alpine · Post by **alpine** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:03 pm

etech6355 wrote:alpine,
actual format. I feel the blu-ray format is much more versatile than the HD-DVD (EVO) format. My videos are as large as 8gigs. On a HD-DVD this video gets broken up into 1 gig parts (the EVO containers).

The commercial HDDVDS I have use 13+GB EVO files. Unless the encoding application is doing this split, there's nothing in the EVO spec. to require it.

Actually I don't know of a way to start any sort of HD project in VS11, the only options I see in the project settings if I open a new project are all 720x576 SD Mpeg or AVI. I just ignore the project settings and manually set things up for HD on the fly. I've always assumed this is because all the HD stuff is an after thought!
The Panny application is not doing anything clever, it's too fast, it works at the usual copy rate from an SD card on to the PC hard disk. I think it's just patching all the packets to add the timecode space, if this is, indeed, the only difference between MTS and M2TS.
It's worth noting that AVCHD file output, as opposed to disk, generated via VS11 from the raw MTS files, also smart renders and is reported by my media server as AVC. The only place VS11 seems to insist on M2TS files is if I want to output an HDDVD format DVD that is AVC coded.

But I've now got where I want to be, a hard medium for my HD camcorder stuff using standard DVDs, encoded with H264 efficiency, 5.1 DD and sparkling quality on to ordinary DVDs, that play on my Tosh.

AB2008 · Post by **AB2008** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:20 pm

alpine wrote:
It was then I remembered the application that comes with Panasonic camcorders, and a post in another forum years ago. I tried this application when I first got the camcorder, but all it seemed to do was recreate the same BDMV structure in a folder on the PC disk, and copy the files across.

alpine:

What is the name of that application ?

I had notice that when I import AVCHD to Video Studio, the HD DVD created that has problems doesn't have correct timing...

Tony