PAL to NTSC Contrast/Shimmering

[RDK45]

Hi Folks.....I recently bought a Sony DCR-HC96E (PAL) video camera and so far I'm quite pleased. I also have an older Sony DCR-TRV330 (NTSC) which I have used for years.

I recently took some video of a field partially covered with snow. When that clip was convered from the original downloaded PAL Widescreen AVI format to MPEG format for inclusion on an NTSC DVD I noticed lots of "shimmering" or wavering in the high contrast diference boundries between snow patches and ground. Further examination shows that effect is also along other contrast boundries during a subsequent snow mobiling trip.

By contrast when I converted to MPEG for use in a PAL DVD I do NOT see this effect. And, I do not recall seeing this when I used to convert from NTSC AVI downloads to PAL for DVD's.

Any comments or ideas what I am doing wrong and/or what I should to fix it?

Thanks...RDK

[Black Lab]

Besides the obvious conversion from PAL to NTSC, another reason could be field order. The field order of your clips, project properties, and burn properties must be the same. And you cannot mix clips that use different field orders in the same project.

[skier-hughes]

Field order would be my first item to check as well.

What standards conversion programme did you use to convert the PAL to NTSC? Or did you just use VS?
VS may well change the frame rate and the frame size, but it doesn't do anything for the blackburst, chrominace, luminance etc etc, which as you are having trouble with white may well be the reason.

[RDK45]

Thanks for the replies.....This project is an "all VS 10+" operation.

I captured from the new camera via Firewire to an AVI file (PAL). I then used VS10+ to create a NTSC MPEG file using the default settings in VS10+ for a short clip (from the drop down when you select "Creat File"). And then used that MPEG file to create the NTSC DVD, after setting the Project Properties to match the MPEG file. The recommended 3 step process.

When I did the control experiment (ie PAL to PAL) I followed the same pattern except I selected the PAL options.

Having said all of that, if I'm supposed to adjust the "Field Order", when and where should this happen?

And finally, you referred to a "standards conversion programme", is there a special tool I should be using for this, other than VS?

Thanks again......RDK

[skier-hughes]

And finally, you referred to a "standards conversion programme", is there a special tool I should be using for this, other than VS?

Thanks again......RDK

If you want to do it properly then yes.
Look at Procoder 3 or Sorenson squeeze. Maybe too expensive though.

[Ken Berry]

Both your cameras use Lower Field First as their field order. So when you capture, it will be captured using that field order. If you use these cameras exclusively, then I would go to File > Preferences >General and make sure the Default Field Order is set to LFF.

Now go to File > Project Properties and ensure that the properties set in the bottom window also is set for Lower Field First (and DV Type 1 Encoder).

Then when you have finished editing, and convert the video to DVD compatible mpeg-2, the mpeg-2 properties must use LFF. And in the burning module, make sure the burn properties in the second icon (cogwheel) in the bottom left of the burning screen also uses LFF.

Like the others, I think this is part of your problem. But I suspect the main culprit is the fact that while VS can notionally convert PAL to NTSC, in point of fact, it is a rank amateur at doing this. If you think about it, the program has to in effect invent 4.97 frames every second to make up the difference in frame speed between PAL and NTSC. Then it also has to trim the PAL frames down from 720 x 576 to 720 x 480. In other words, you have a new file which has nearly 5 frames per second which are simply duplicates of an existing frame, and those frames are all cropped to be narrower. And you are expecting a $100 program to do this very complex juggling act on the fly as part of another highly complex editing/burning process...

I personally have Procoder 2 which is custom made for standards conversion (as suggested by skier-hughes) and it does a pretty good job albeit slowly and carefully. But even with that, I would have to say that I am never 100% satisfied with the end result.

[RDK45]

Thanks folks for the info. I will look into this when we get back from skiing next weekend and let you know how I make out.

Wow, just checked out Procoder and, yes, it is a bit expensive for my amateur projects. I guess my USA family and friends will have to suffer if I do not figure out a work-around.

Thanks anyway.....RDK

[skier-hughes]

If they have new equipment it may do a better job of displaying the PAL content than you can converting it.
If not, they can play PAL dvds on a pc.
If not, well, seeing the content is generally much more important than the quality when you've not seen a grandchild for a few years, just look at how popular Utube etc are, where's the quality there????

[RDK45]

Folks.....I know this is an old thread that I started several years ago, but I just ran into another program which claims to "easily and correctly" convert PAL DV to NTSC DV. The name is "DVFilm Atlantis" and it is version 2.1. Any of you folks know anything about this program. I've love Procoder 3, but my wife would kill me.....RDK45

[Ron P.]

Looks like a promising program for those that would do a reasonable amount of conversion between NTSC and PAL. Your posting is the first I've heard of it. So are you going to be the one to test it for us?

http://dvfilm.com/atlantis/index.htm

Also posted in the General Information & Downloads forum, Third-Party Commercial Software.
http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php ... 39#p218039

[RDK45]

Ron...OK, looks like you got me. I'll invest the $45 to find out. But, would like any other input I can get about this program....RDK

[RDK45]

Folks....I have installed the licensed version of DVFilm. It works but...

I have tried to convert a 16:9 clip from my Sony DCR-HC96E (PAL) video camera. There are three options which basically result in 1) a converted 4:3 where the origianl 16:9 is stretched to fill a 4:3 frame, 2) a 16.9 is cropped into a 4:3 frame and 3) the 16:9 is inserted in a 4:3 frame with black space above and below (old time 4:3 TV format) . At first glance (admittedly I'm most conserned with the loss of aspect ratio) the conversion from 25fps to 29.97 fsp and frame size PAL to NTSC looks good, minimal jerkiness and loss of resolution.

Can you offer any suggestions of ways to take "1)" or "3)" above and return it to full screen 16:9 with Ulead VS 11+ (or any of the newer VS versions)?

Back to DVFilm, I think if one is working only in 4:3 mode then this could be a very interesting option for converting from PAL to NTSC.....Rob

[Black Lab]

Can you offer any suggestions of ways to take "1)" or "3)" above and return it to full screen 16:9 with Ulead VS 11+ (or any of the newer VS versions)?

Uh, no. Think about it. It's really just math/geometry. You are trying to put a rectangle into a square. To do that you have to crop it, shrink it or stretch it. To put a 16:9 video in a 4:3 frame you must use one of those three options.

[RDK45]

Folks and particular Ron.....I tried to use DVFilm Atlantis to convert some 16:9 PAL clips to NTSC without success. As I reported above it seems to force the final frame format to be 4:3 with the original 16:9 clip embedded or distorted to fit. If one is working in 4:3 format it might work ok.

It is too bad as the conversion from PAL to NTSC seem to be ok with minimal jitter and loss of resolution.

Oh well, a good experiment. I tried to discuss my results with DVFilm tech support but they were not very helpful or responsive.....RDK45