Project settings - AVCHD video

Roloilly · Post by **Roloilly** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:51 pm

Using VS 11+:
In the file-project properties. When I try to adjust the settings, click edit, it doesnt allow me to choose the 1440 x 480 option, it only has the option of 720x480. Does this have anything to do with the settings for my final project? I've read that the files in the timeline should have the same settings as original files, but since it doesnt allow me to change the settings (defaulted to ntcs, mpge files 720x480, lower field) I'm wondering if this would impact my final project, even if I choose the correct settings at the end in the burning module?
p.s. The capture does recognize the correct settings, so I'm just wondering about changing the properties once the video has been captured.
Thanks in advance for your help.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 pm

The easiest way of ensuring you maintain the same properties throughout is to go to File > Preferences > General, and tick the box beside 'Show message when inserting first video clip into the Timeline'.

That way, next time you start a new project and drag your first clip into the timeline, you will get a dialogue box asking if you want the project properties to match those of the clip. You say OK and then you have identical project properties.

You do your editing, then when you produce a video file at the end, you go to Share > Create Video File and select Same as Project Settings (or Same as First Clip). That way, everything is maintained throughout...

However, since you are editing avchd clips, you need to bear in mind etech's findings that it is probably better to do your editing, but not go to Share > Create Video File, and instead jump straight to Share > Create Disc > AVCHD in terms of better end quality.

Roloilly · Post by **Roloilly** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:11 am

We are not getting the pop up screen at all, even though it is checked in the preferences.
Another issue I'm having is: The settings are defaulted to 720X480, when I change to mpeg 2 we are able to choose the 1440x480 but if we click the 5.1 surround it reverts back to 720x480.
I know when I go to the share option and click the final settings I am able to get the correct one, but since it has been always been mentioned to have the same settings at the beginning and end I worry that I will be decreasing the quality of my video.
Should I worry about that? Could my program be corrupted?

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:26 am

I feel a little foolish as I have just noticed (since you repeated it) that you are trying to set your properties to 1440 x 480. I had ignored it the first time since I thought it was an obvious typo. But what strange frame format are you talking about. Do you really mean 1440 x 1080? (If you think about it 1440 x 480 would give you a very wide but very narrow frame...)

As for your Dolby problems, I know that has come up in the past, but as I don't yet have a high def camera, I am not sure about the answer. But our resident high def guru etech I know has an answer for it. So let's hope he jumps in here soon...

Post by **Ron P.** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 3:06 pm

After reading your problem with the frame size setting I attempted it. VS does as stated. You can not use Dolby 5.1 audio and those frame sizes. The frame size is reverted.

Even in the Share>Create Video File step, it will not allow using Dolby 5.1 wit those frame sizes..

This is obviously a question that Etech may be able to answer..

Roloilly · Post by **Roloilly** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 5:09 pm

My apologies gentlemen, that was definitely a typo

. I meant 1440x1080, I guess my brain was fried after playing with this all day.

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 9:57 pm

Roloilly,
In VS and many video editors rule of thumb is to make your Project Settings equal to the source videos settings. In VS you can't do this except for the HDV standard format which is mpeg2 using mpeg audio. When you playback a clip in the clip mode VS plays the file back directly in the format it's encoded in (unless you are using Proxy Files). The same with playing back in the Project mode.

I haven't found very good Project Settings to apply when editing avc/h264 content because if you want instant previewing the clip(s) still have to be converted to the project settings format to be viewed correctly. This would probably require a fast computer that isn't available today.

I will use either 2 settings when editing avc/h264 video for my project settings:
DV-Type2 using PCM 5.1 Audio
or DVD mpeg2 - VBR@9500kbs using Dolby 5.1 Audio @ 448kbs

Either way unless you use proxy files you will not get a good full preview of your editing work. The method VS uses to create proxies takes a long time, it's not the method I use when working with proxies.

I added the below for you & others to convert avc/h264 to standard definition video for dvd's. When I get time I'll post how to use these videos as proxy files in place of the original avc/h264 videos, this way you can get a good previewing of the work using these generated videos as proxies and also compliant videos ready to be edited or burn to dvd's.

Since most persons want to make dvd's from their videos I first perform conversions to Standard Definition format (either dv-type2 w/5.1 audio or mpeg video w/5.1 audio). Once you convert the videos to Standard Definition you will always have them to re-use in other standard definition dvd projects, including the fact you can also use these as your proxy file(s).

The method below works for me in VS11+.
After I import or extract the avc/h264 videos to my harddisk I rename them and catalog them into a harddisk folder. This is simple under windows using long file names for directories & files. After I have the avc/h264 videos cataloged on the harddisk I'll make standard definition video files from them (to make dvd's and use as proxy files).

I'll use a cataloging system on my harddisk making a folder called VS_Proxies_Standard_Definition.
Then start VS, set my project settings to
720x480, 29.97fps, upper_field_first,16:9
Dolby Audio 5.1@448kbs
Compression =100%
Video Bit Rate = Variable 9500kbs

Save this project calling it "VS Proxy Generator"
Then goto "Tools -> Batch Convert", select your source avc/h264 videos to convert. Assign the directory ("VS_Proxies_Standard_Definition") to save these files into.
Double check the format your converting to, it should be the same as your project settings, click on the options to double check these settings. After your sure the settings are all correct then click on the "Convert" Icon.
Probably better to do this at night or when the computer isn't needed. Depending on your processor this may take awhile to convert.

Roloilly · Post by **Roloilly** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:52 pm

Thanks for your replies. etech I'll have to go try this tonight. I'll print your instructions and try it.

I went ahead and edited my first AVCHD video. It took 6 1/2 hours in the burning module for 28 minutes of video. Is this normal? When it got up to 99%, I got an error message saying "Error in Reading File [533-2147216499:0." I removed the disc (dvd-r) and inserted a rewritable and it worked fine, it burned it in about 10 minutes but I noticed the file size on the screen dropped from 3.13 gig to about 2.14 gig. I tried another -r and got the same error message, I then inserted a +r and it burned OK.

I had originally burned an AVCHD disc from the supplied software that came with the camera which doesnt allow me to edit. I compared this original disc to the one I edited (which should have more info since I added pictures and music and I only cutout a few seconds of video). I turned both discs to compare the amount of information written to the disc, it looks like there is half the information on the VS+ disc as opposed to the original. Could it be that VS compresses and causes a loss of video quality?
Thanks for your help in advance.

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:22 pm

I went ahead and edited my first AVCHD video. It took 6 1/2 hours in the burning module for 28 minutes of video. Is this normal?

Pretty much, that should give you an idea of just how compressed the avc/h264 video format is.
I have a very heavy edited VS11+ Project using 3 avc/h264 videos with text overlays, multi-trims, transitions etc.
Right now I've loaded that VS project file into MF6+ (with the HD-Add-On pack) and re-encoding the project (you can do this) to a new avc/h264 video file.
It's 12 Minutes long and the encode is going to take about an hour. That's on an Intel Q6600 quad computer running at 2.4Ghz (4 cores). If it was a standard encode without much editing a 12 minute video to encode to avc/h264 takes about

it looks like there is half the information on the VS+ disc as opposed to the original. Could it be that VS compresses and causes a loss of video quality?

This is different encoding parameters, with avc/h264 and VS you have to get some experience. When I use 18000kbs Variable Bit Rate the videos come out running approx 11.5MBS-12MBS. VS is basing it's calculation on 18MBS, after the encode it's really about 12MBS. I still have to experiement with using Constant Bit Rate compared to Variable Bit Rate. The videos encoded using 18MBS VBR that run at 12MBS average look very good.
If your videos run the same length in time but smaller file sizes from VS the sources are using a higher bit rate or possilby are Constant bit Rate encoded avc/h264 video. Even when an avc/h264 video is encoded at CBR VS will read it as VBR, I think this is normal. When encoding CBR many encoders use VBR but set the MAX/MIN/AVG values all to the same value. In VS which is using the "Main Concept" encoder these values are different for VBR, actually giving excellent results at a reduced file size. I still have to experiment with the CBR encoding from VS & MF.
When in doubt use 18MBR VBR for best quality & small file sizes.

Roloilly · Post by **Roloilly** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:38 am

etech, thanks for all your input, its helped me tremendously.
I used 16mbs, same as the video clips for that project.

Now, I'm trying to play with some of the other options you had mentioned earlier. I am trying to create a video straight from the burning module (unedited). It only allows me to add up to 99 clips, if I add too many at once, it crashes. Is there any way to bypass the 99 limit? My clips are usually 5-6 seconds long and my videos (vacation) end up being about 130+ clips.

One more thing if you dont mind, I had made another post with this topic but got zero replies. On the project properties I have selected "show message when inserting first video clip into the timeline" however when I put my first clip in the timeline the pop-up message never shows up and it doesnt change the settings to 1440x1080. I really wanted this pop-up to come on so I can enable smart rendering. Is there another way to enable the smart rendering? I used smart proxy for my avchd editing, but even disabling it didnt enable the pop-up screen to come up.

Thanks again for your replies. You've helped me a lot.

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:14 am

VS doesn't notify you if the format will not apply, that's why your not getting the pop-up box.
VS doesn't exactly use smartrender that way. If you were working with DV or standard Mpeg then yes.
VS11+ has the "MPEG Optimizer", it will use your 1st video file on the timeline as it's input.
So put about 5 or 10 videos videos on the timeline and goto "Share -> Create Video File -> Mpeg Optimizer", then "Show Details" and look at the encoding parameters, the green means no re-encoding and red means re-encoding, then click on the "ACCEPT" if you want these settings.
Before you go to save the file click on "Options", I disable Play the video after rendering, there is also a selection to turn smart-render on/off in this box before exporting to a new file. Some videos can be smartrendered and others cannot be.
I highly recommend doing this with smart-render on and then smartrender off. Smartrendering video can have some bad side effects.

Also when you goto "Share -> Create Video File -> Mpeg Optimizer", then "Show Details" look at the top drop-down box. There should be a setting for your avc/h264 videos AND a setting for standard HDV, the HDV settings should match your source video framesize, fielding & aspect ratio, the audio will be mpeg audio.

I also recommend to export to these HDV settings so you know what it's like to work with high defintion videos in the true HDV mpeg2 format. You will find that format is much less of a strain on the computer. One of my hd-cam records in this HDV mpeg2 format, easy to edit and then convert to avc/h264 if I want to. The file sizes are rather large but normal for Video Editing.

For example load 10 short videos and using the mpeg optimizer export to a HDV file (change the format using the drop-down box).
Do this with another set of 10 videos so you end up with 2 HDV video files on your harddisk.
Now start a new VS project & insert those 2 HDV video files (VS may ask you now to change the project settings).
After you have loaded the 2 HDV files goto "Share -> Create Video File -> Mpeg Optimizer" check the settings so you will create a new HDV video file, Accept and export the 2 files out to 1 video file. The process should go very fast using smart-render.
That will give you a clue as to the difference in the amount of compression between HDV (High Definition Mpeg2 Video) compared to High Definition AVC/H264 video.

Now do this all in the avc/h264 video format and you will see why I use HDV mpeg2 for editing. Working with the HDV high def video is much easier on the computer. Playing them back in programs like Nero Showtime, VLC player, windvd, powerdvd 7 works nice.
Usually when I have to edit avc/h264 video I convert it first to a more editable format. It depends.

HDV Mpeg2 Video requires a high bit-rate to retain quality (less compression), AVC/H264 uses a lower bit-rate and more compression to keep about the same quality.
A 25MBS Video bit Rate mpeg2 video is about equal to a 13-15MBS Video bit Rate avc/h264 video.

You may find you will have to disable smart-render when working with avc/h264 video files.
You may want to try Constant bit Rate of 15MBS or 16MBS in the burning module next time. It seems to do well on my system, nice video..

Roloilly · Post by **Roloilly** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:25 pm

I will try your suggestions tonight.

What would you say is a better way to save my backup copy for future? Save the raw video created from my camera or create a video file(edited). My concern with the last: Is that file burnable only using VS+ or would I be able to use any other editing program to create a dvd (like Nero, Roxio or any other program).

I would rather use the last so I can have my edited copy but I want to make sure that I am saving the best option. I dont have a film to use as backup, my camera is hard drive.

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:19 pm

I would backup the originals and edited copies to dvd as data files.
Sounds like many of your source videos are very short 4-6 sec's.

It took me awhile to learn how to shoot HD properly with my cam.

Roloilly · Post by **Roloilly** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:32 pm

When we were using our old camcorder, we found that when we filmed the same thing for longer than 5-6 seconds, the video became boring. We had the option of automatically shoot for 5 seconds and the video was more enjoyable (we were never into editing). The actual vacation video could be an hour long, we just video the animals or scenes for about 5 seconds at a time (I hope i'm making sense).
Now that we bought our new hi def camera, we stuck to the same 5 second rule, but I guess we'll have to change that rule now that we are into editing and are able to cut out unwanted clips.

Regarding backup: Right now we are keeping one copy of the edited dvd and we also purchased an external hard drive for backup in case the dvd goes bad. We want to limit our backup to one dvd and the external hard drive to save space in the house.
So what I am trying to figure out is which is the best way to go for the external hard drive backup (the complete edited video file or the raw clips). I wonder if the edited video would be readable/burnable on other editing software. Otherwise, I would then just stick to saving the raw video.

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:35 pm

We want to limit our backup to one dvd and the external hard drive to save space in the house.

Yes, I need a pickup truck to carry my dvd's :

Maybe you didn't mean to be funny but your 2nd paragraph has had me laughing now for awhile. (since I must have 200+ burnt dvd's).
My problem isn't storage, it's cataloging them in order to keep track of what is where.
Sounds like the external hard disk is the way to go.