Etech??? I hear you are the expert on HD video. I have done so much searching on several different topics over the last week, and may have already ran across this topic. But I have a Canon HV20 and recorded my cousins wedding. I want to create a DVD for them, because they don't have access to BluRay or HDDVD yet. I want to create the highest quality DVD for them, to play in their set top player. I am curious what you think would be the best option for 1) capturing the video and 2) exporting the video to DVD. Should I capture the m2t file from HDsplit (sp?) and then import that to VideoStudio, or should I capture it directly from Ulead and use the DV import option. Would you go with Type 1 or 2, Upper or Lower field? Basically, what would be the best settings to provide the highest quality DVD from this amazing HD camcorder?? I am really stuck.
As a test, I did import a m2t file and created a file by choosing the NTSC DVD(16:9) file, but there was some major ghosting going on in the video after it was rendered. It was unwatchable. (The original did not look like that) If you have any suggestions, that would be awesome. Oh, and I am running my new upgraded VideoStudio 11+ with HD Power Pack.
Thanks a lot for the time to read this!!
-Rob
Capture setting for HDvideo going to DVD? Etech??
Moderator: Ken Berry
Hi, I copied & pasted from other posts so this is somewhat long.
Video Studio 11 Plus:
First, under ¡§Preferences -> Edit tab make sure re-sampling quality = BEST.
¡§General Tab -> Show message when inserting first video clip into the Time line¡¨ = ON (Checked ON)
¡§General Tab -> Playback method¡¨ = Instant Playback
¡§General Tab -> Instant Playback target¡¨ = Preview Window
Assign a working directory and preview should be set to ¡§Instant Preview¡¨.
Creating a dvd mpeg2 compliant file from VideoStudio:
Goto ¡§Tools¡¨ -> ¡§Disc Template Manager¡¨ or ¡§Make Movie Manager¡¨
Click on ¡§New¡¨, Format = Mpeg, name the template ¡§DVD 9500 VBR UFF¡¨ and create this template.
General Tab
FrameRate = 29.97 frames/second
Frame type = upper field first
FrameSize = 720x480
Display aspect ratio = 16:9
Compression Tab
Media Type = NTSC DVD
Quality = 100
(Set the audio format first before the video bit rate)
Audio format = Dolby Digital Audio
Audio type = 3/2(L,C,R,SL,SR)
Audio Bit Rate = 384kbs
Video data rate = Variable 9500kbs
Toggle between the 2 tabs & double check these settings making sure they are correct.
Click ¡§OK¡¨ & save your template.
You can make a few of your own templates the ¡§Video data rate = Variable 8500kbs setting will determine the quality & how much you can fit on one Single Sided DVD. The above template show give you close to an hour of video per single layer dvd, depends..
After saving this template, double check the settings to make sure they are correct.
Make another template exactly the same except using 8000kbs as the Video Bit Rate.
Use a name similar to ¡§DVD 8000 VBR UFF¡¨
You can always select one of these 2 templates now to export any videos from the time line that also have similar properites such as ¡§Upper Field First¡¨ (The fielding is important).
DV captured via firewire is ¡§Lower Field First¡¨, so users capturing DV would make their templates ¡§Lower Field First¡¨.
The HV20 uses ¡§Upper Field First¡¨ when capturing HDV video.
The HV20 uses ¡§Lower Field First¡¨ when capturing Standard Definition Video.
Capture in VS or load your High Definition Videos into the timeline.
Export them to mpeg2 video file format by going to ¡§Share -> Create Video file -> ¡§Your Custom Template¡¨. This will produce a dvd compliant video file from the time line and write it to your harddisk. All your custom made templates are displayed at the bottom of the listing under ¡§Create Video File¡¨.
Another method which I also use is make your project settings match one of the above templates.
Then goto ¡§Share -> Create Video File -> Same As Project Settings¡¨
To edit in same format as your High Definition video files use these settings. You should also make a template of these settings.
Set the ¡§Compression Tab¡¨ settings first:
Compression Tab
Media Type = Mpeg2
Quality = 100
Video data rate = Constant 25000kbs
Audio format = Mpeg
Audio type = Stereo, 48khz
Audio Bit Rate = 384kbs
General Tab
FrameRate = 29.97 frames/second
Frame type = upper field first
FrameSize = 1440x1080
Display aspect ratio = 16:9
Then to create a new High Definition video file goto ¡§Share -> Create Video File -> Same As Project Settings¡¨ or select the template.
Always create/export your edited video files to a new file before burning a dvd.
To burn a dvd:
Start VS or File-> New, so the timeline is empty.
Goto ¡§Share -> Create Disk -> DVD¡¨
Click on the GEAR Icon (bottom of screen) -> change Mpeg Settings -> Customize and make these settings the same as your source mpeg2 video files.
Under Preferences assign a working directory for the burning module.
Use the Icon at the top to insert your dvd mpeg2 compliant video files into the burning modules time line, create chapters, a menu and burn the dvd.
I suggest making small 10 minute video projects/dvd's first to learn the in's/out's of the program.
Then proceed to bigger projects. Save the videos to your harddisk that are already dvd compliant, you can re-use them in future projects.
You can always get your videos back from the dvd using the VS Import from dvd features.
Video Studio 11 Plus:
First, under ¡§Preferences -> Edit tab make sure re-sampling quality = BEST.
¡§General Tab -> Show message when inserting first video clip into the Time line¡¨ = ON (Checked ON)
¡§General Tab -> Playback method¡¨ = Instant Playback
¡§General Tab -> Instant Playback target¡¨ = Preview Window
Assign a working directory and preview should be set to ¡§Instant Preview¡¨.
Creating a dvd mpeg2 compliant file from VideoStudio:
Goto ¡§Tools¡¨ -> ¡§Disc Template Manager¡¨ or ¡§Make Movie Manager¡¨
Click on ¡§New¡¨, Format = Mpeg, name the template ¡§DVD 9500 VBR UFF¡¨ and create this template.
General Tab
FrameRate = 29.97 frames/second
Frame type = upper field first
FrameSize = 720x480
Display aspect ratio = 16:9
Compression Tab
Media Type = NTSC DVD
Quality = 100
(Set the audio format first before the video bit rate)
Audio format = Dolby Digital Audio
Audio type = 3/2(L,C,R,SL,SR)
Audio Bit Rate = 384kbs
Video data rate = Variable 9500kbs
Toggle between the 2 tabs & double check these settings making sure they are correct.
Click ¡§OK¡¨ & save your template.
You can make a few of your own templates the ¡§Video data rate = Variable 8500kbs setting will determine the quality & how much you can fit on one Single Sided DVD. The above template show give you close to an hour of video per single layer dvd, depends..
After saving this template, double check the settings to make sure they are correct.
Make another template exactly the same except using 8000kbs as the Video Bit Rate.
Use a name similar to ¡§DVD 8000 VBR UFF¡¨
You can always select one of these 2 templates now to export any videos from the time line that also have similar properites such as ¡§Upper Field First¡¨ (The fielding is important).
DV captured via firewire is ¡§Lower Field First¡¨, so users capturing DV would make their templates ¡§Lower Field First¡¨.
The HV20 uses ¡§Upper Field First¡¨ when capturing HDV video.
The HV20 uses ¡§Lower Field First¡¨ when capturing Standard Definition Video.
Capture in VS or load your High Definition Videos into the timeline.
Export them to mpeg2 video file format by going to ¡§Share -> Create Video file -> ¡§Your Custom Template¡¨. This will produce a dvd compliant video file from the time line and write it to your harddisk. All your custom made templates are displayed at the bottom of the listing under ¡§Create Video File¡¨.
Another method which I also use is make your project settings match one of the above templates.
Then goto ¡§Share -> Create Video File -> Same As Project Settings¡¨
To edit in same format as your High Definition video files use these settings. You should also make a template of these settings.
Set the ¡§Compression Tab¡¨ settings first:
Compression Tab
Media Type = Mpeg2
Quality = 100
Video data rate = Constant 25000kbs
Audio format = Mpeg
Audio type = Stereo, 48khz
Audio Bit Rate = 384kbs
General Tab
FrameRate = 29.97 frames/second
Frame type = upper field first
FrameSize = 1440x1080
Display aspect ratio = 16:9
Then to create a new High Definition video file goto ¡§Share -> Create Video File -> Same As Project Settings¡¨ or select the template.
Always create/export your edited video files to a new file before burning a dvd.
To burn a dvd:
Start VS or File-> New, so the timeline is empty.
Goto ¡§Share -> Create Disk -> DVD¡¨
Click on the GEAR Icon (bottom of screen) -> change Mpeg Settings -> Customize and make these settings the same as your source mpeg2 video files.
Under Preferences assign a working directory for the burning module.
Use the Icon at the top to insert your dvd mpeg2 compliant video files into the burning modules time line, create chapters, a menu and burn the dvd.
I suggest making small 10 minute video projects/dvd's first to learn the in's/out's of the program.
Then proceed to bigger projects. Save the videos to your harddisk that are already dvd compliant, you can re-use them in future projects.
You can always get your videos back from the dvd using the VS Import from dvd features.
Thanks to webcombo for posting the question - it was nearly exactly what I was going to ask! And sorry for hijacking...
And etech6355, thank you also. You sure seem to be the resident guru here on HD! I've searched for other posts with "etech6355" and "AVCHD" but can't find anyting that relates specifically to me, so apologies if this has been covered somewhere else...
etech6355... my situation is nearly the same as webcombo's with the following exceptions:
camera is a Sony HDR SR7
I'm in Australia so the TV system's PAL
Other than that I want to do exactly the same - create the best quality normal DVD (720 x 576) that I can. I've played around with many settings but still seem to get "pixelated" video in my final result. The original AVCHD recording is amazing!
Do you know what "frame type" this camera uses for HD recording?
And are there any differences for PAL?
frame rate = 25 fps and PAL standard DVDs are 720 x 576 - other than that I get very confused.
Thanks in anticipation for any suggestions you can make.
And etech6355, thank you also. You sure seem to be the resident guru here on HD! I've searched for other posts with "etech6355" and "AVCHD" but can't find anyting that relates specifically to me, so apologies if this has been covered somewhere else...
etech6355... my situation is nearly the same as webcombo's with the following exceptions:
camera is a Sony HDR SR7
I'm in Australia so the TV system's PAL
Other than that I want to do exactly the same - create the best quality normal DVD (720 x 576) that I can. I've played around with many settings but still seem to get "pixelated" video in my final result. The original AVCHD recording is amazing!
Do you know what "frame type" this camera uses for HD recording?
And are there any differences for PAL?
frame rate = 25 fps and PAL standard DVDs are 720 x 576 - other than that I get very confused.
Thanks in anticipation for any suggestions you can make.
Hi again etech6355.
I've just looked at the properties of my m2t files and they do say "Upper field first" - so I guess that answers my frame type question!
Sorry, but I keep picking up new understanding the more I read. I still get SO confused!!!
I'm about to go ahead now with a small test and will report back.
I've just looked at the properties of my m2t files and they do say "Upper field first" - so I guess that answers my frame type question!
Sorry, but I keep picking up new understanding the more I read. I still get SO confused!!!
I'm about to go ahead now with a small test and will report back.
Better! Definitely 
But still not quite as good as another brand of product I've used
But the other brand is hopelessly unstable and keeps crashing and I have to IFOEdit to fix up sound problems etc.
I like ULead SO much better so will persist with other settings etc.
Still, any further suggestions you could make etech6355 (e.g. should I use 2-pass encoding for the final DVD render?) would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again etech6355! I'm still learning.
But still not quite as good as another brand of product I've used
But the other brand is hopelessly unstable and keeps crashing and I have to IFOEdit to fix up sound problems etc.
I like ULead SO much better so will persist with other settings etc.
Still, any further suggestions you could make etech6355 (e.g. should I use 2-pass encoding for the final DVD render?) would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks again etech6355! I'm still learning.
Peter,
Are you creating a template like the above post?
You should get good results converting the avchd video files to standard defintion using the templates I posted.
This would be a template for PAL, the above post was for NTSC.
PAL use a lower framerate and different framesize.
You have to use PAL Frame Rate (25 FPS), make sure it's PAL (25) and framesize is 720x576
General Tab
FrameRate = 25 frames/second
Frame type = upper field first
FrameSize = 720x576
Display aspect ratio = 16:9
Compression Tab
Media Type = PAL DVD
Quality = 100
(Set the audio format first before the video bit rate)
Audio format = Dolby Digital Audio
Audio type = 3/2(L,C,R,SL,SR)
Audio Bit Rate = 384kbs or 448kbs
Video data rate = Variable 9500kbs
You should be judging your video on a dvd player. Windows Media player is NOT the best player to judge the video because it's interlaced video, (unless your using Vista with Directx10 & WMP 11, it's better) so I recommend to burn a dvd and view it on your dvd player on a standard TV.
If the video stutters while playing on a dvd player lower the video bit rate below 8000kbs.................. or buy a better dvd player
It's not going to look as good as the High Def files because it's standard definition..
Are you creating a template like the above post?
You should get good results converting the avchd video files to standard defintion using the templates I posted.
This would be a template for PAL, the above post was for NTSC.
PAL use a lower framerate and different framesize.
You have to use PAL Frame Rate (25 FPS), make sure it's PAL (25) and framesize is 720x576
General Tab
FrameRate = 25 frames/second
Frame type = upper field first
FrameSize = 720x576
Display aspect ratio = 16:9
Compression Tab
Media Type = PAL DVD
Quality = 100
(Set the audio format first before the video bit rate)
Audio format = Dolby Digital Audio
Audio type = 3/2(L,C,R,SL,SR)
Audio Bit Rate = 384kbs or 448kbs
Video data rate = Variable 9500kbs
You should be judging your video on a dvd player. Windows Media player is NOT the best player to judge the video because it's interlaced video, (unless your using Vista with Directx10 & WMP 11, it's better) so I recommend to burn a dvd and view it on your dvd player on a standard TV.
If the video stutters while playing on a dvd player lower the video bit rate below 8000kbs.................. or buy a better dvd player
It's not going to look as good as the High Def files because it's standard definition..
Hi etech6355,
Thanks for replying.
I created the template as you suggested but did change the frame rate to 25 and size to 720 x 576. I musn't be THAT confused afterall, at least I got that right!
I also did discover tha UFF was the way to go - could tell from the properties of the m2t file (from within VS+).
And burnt to DVD - I read from another of your posts that the PC was not the way to best judge - and you're so right there, thanks!
I think I notice the "pixelating" (however, only slight) when I watch the DVD on a 19" LCD (16:9, resolution of 1400 x 900) as the picture from the DVD is zoomed to full screen! Although, a normal DVD movie, also full screen, looks fine (confused here)???
Anyway, when I watch the DVD through my old 68cm CRT TV, it does look very good and I can't notice any "pixelation" - just doesn't have the sharpness or detail of the original AVCHD format (I've been a bit used to plugging in my handycam into the LCD via HDMI and watching this way - now that's sharp and detailed!!!
So, I guess I'm there really. I will continue to experiment by using various templates (based on yours and tweaking different settings) and then run the burnt DVD through comparing each clip as I go. I probably won't notice any real difference though. Or do you think this will be the best result possible?
Just one more question, if you don't mind...? Does my result of viewing through the LCD (DVD player is hooked up via component) make sense? I'm still a bit confused as to why a commercial DVD-Video looks so much better?
Thanks again for all your help!
Kind regards,
Peter.
Thanks for replying.
I created the template as you suggested but did change the frame rate to 25 and size to 720 x 576. I musn't be THAT confused afterall, at least I got that right!
I also did discover tha UFF was the way to go - could tell from the properties of the m2t file (from within VS+).
And burnt to DVD - I read from another of your posts that the PC was not the way to best judge - and you're so right there, thanks!
I think I notice the "pixelating" (however, only slight) when I watch the DVD on a 19" LCD (16:9, resolution of 1400 x 900) as the picture from the DVD is zoomed to full screen! Although, a normal DVD movie, also full screen, looks fine (confused here)???
Anyway, when I watch the DVD through my old 68cm CRT TV, it does look very good and I can't notice any "pixelation" - just doesn't have the sharpness or detail of the original AVCHD format (I've been a bit used to plugging in my handycam into the LCD via HDMI and watching this way - now that's sharp and detailed!!!
So, I guess I'm there really. I will continue to experiment by using various templates (based on yours and tweaking different settings) and then run the burnt DVD through comparing each clip as I go. I probably won't notice any real difference though. Or do you think this will be the best result possible?
Just one more question, if you don't mind...? Does my result of viewing through the LCD (DVD player is hooked up via component) make sense? I'm still a bit confused as to why a commercial DVD-Video looks so much better?
Thanks again for all your help!
Kind regards,
Peter.
Etech, thank you soooooo much for this reply. This was exactly what I was looking for. Unfortunately, I won't be able to test these settings until the weekend, but I will be printing and laminating this info, as it is going to be so helpful. And to create a template (didn't know I could do that) is going to be so handy. Thank you again for all your help. I'm sure this thread will help out a lot of people, as more and more people are realizing the power of the HV20 and Ulead as well. I hope you didn't mind that I singled you out. But you seem to be the man to go to!!!
Thanks again,
Rob
Thanks again,
Rob
In most browsers you can save web pages to your local harddisk by going to File -> Save as Page, or SaveAs. This way you can keep a local copy of the posts on this board on your computers hard drive. With High Defintion Video I suggest keep the panning to a minimum. A tripod will give the best results, use slow pans, similar to movies we watch, zooming doesn't seem to be as bad as fast panning. Fast panning is not natural and can cause the viewers to become dizzy or nauseous when shooting High Def.
Peter,
For the LCD display that shows pixelization can you connect the LCD up via a digital or component(r/g/b connection)? Then drive the LCD with the dvd player in progressive mode so the dvd player performs the conversion to progressive. The conversions I've made in VS going from HD to SD looked pretty good. VS11+ trial not so good, the patches to VS11+ fix many problems.
Here's some other information and links that help out, some related to you projects and some isn't:
Peterx's cam is an AVCHD cam which records in the avc/h264 format while webcombo's is a HV20 that records in the hd-mpeg2 format (HDV). Both cams use a different video compression method and different audio properties.
The avc/h264 is not really a video editable format, it was developed to shoot, distribute & play along with lower file sizes and still be in High Defintion while the HV20 (HDV) cam can be edited by many video editors. AVC/H264 uses about 1/2 the bit-rate or less than the HV20 does, therefore the file sizes are approx 1/2 the size or lower. The HV20 also has a few different video modes to record in. So when using a HV20 cam with VS remember to shoot standard HDV which is 1440x1080i (interlaced or commonly called 1080-60i). The HV20 outputs Standard HDV on it's firewire port. So if you recorded in standard HDV to the HV20 tape it outputs exactly what's on the tape which is 1440x1080-60i @ 25MBS Constant Bit Rate, mpeg audio. If you use the other custom modes to record in on the HV20 (such as 24P) when the signal is output via the firewire port it's embedded into the standard HDV signal on the firewire port. The HDV signal on the firewire port of a NTSC cam is 29.97 FPS. If you recorded in 24P then the 24P is embedded into the 29.97 FPS signal. This is called Pull-Down, there are different methods used and it gets complicated depending on the video editing program.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_HV20
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine
Not at all, I can't always respond though, just to busy. I don't call myself an expert. just helping out like others have helped me.I'm sure this thread will help out a lot of people, as more and more people are realizing the power of the HV20 and Ulead as well. I hope you didn't mind that I singled you out. But you seem to be the man to go to!!!
Peter,
For the LCD display that shows pixelization can you connect the LCD up via a digital or component(r/g/b connection)? Then drive the LCD with the dvd player in progressive mode so the dvd player performs the conversion to progressive. The conversions I've made in VS going from HD to SD looked pretty good. VS11+ trial not so good, the patches to VS11+ fix many problems.
Here's some other information and links that help out, some related to you projects and some isn't:
Peterx's cam is an AVCHD cam which records in the avc/h264 format while webcombo's is a HV20 that records in the hd-mpeg2 format (HDV). Both cams use a different video compression method and different audio properties.
The avc/h264 is not really a video editable format, it was developed to shoot, distribute & play along with lower file sizes and still be in High Defintion while the HV20 (HDV) cam can be edited by many video editors. AVC/H264 uses about 1/2 the bit-rate or less than the HV20 does, therefore the file sizes are approx 1/2 the size or lower. The HV20 also has a few different video modes to record in. So when using a HV20 cam with VS remember to shoot standard HDV which is 1440x1080i (interlaced or commonly called 1080-60i). The HV20 outputs Standard HDV on it's firewire port. So if you recorded in standard HDV to the HV20 tape it outputs exactly what's on the tape which is 1440x1080-60i @ 25MBS Constant Bit Rate, mpeg audio. If you use the other custom modes to record in on the HV20 (such as 24P) when the signal is output via the firewire port it's embedded into the standard HDV signal on the firewire port. The HDV signal on the firewire port of a NTSC cam is 29.97 FPS. If you recorded in 24P then the 24P is embedded into the 29.97 FPS signal. This is called Pull-Down, there are different methods used and it gets complicated depending on the video editing program.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24pTo record 24p material onto a 60i format (i.e. any NTSC-based format), pulldown is typically added to 'pad' the 24 frames into 60 fields.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_HV20
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine
Excellent info, Etech!!! Thank you very much for the additional info. I have decided that I am not that happy with the 24p mode, mostly because of the inability to pan and the dizzy effect it poses. Yes, it is a "cool" feature if I wanted to shoot a movie. But I am mostly shooting home movies. So fast moving kids looks awesome in the Shutter priority mode. I do use "cinemode" when I am in low light situations because of the insanly grainless video it produces. Just out of curiousity, do you have an HV20?? If so, do you use VideoStudio for your 24p pulldown needed videos? I may be doing a "professional" shoot in the upcoming months, and didn't know if there is an easy way to do it in VideoStudio (obviously using other programs to produce the pulldown). But to finalize the video and add the effects and transitions in VS. Just curious.
Thanks again for all your help, etech!!
-Rob
Thanks again for all your help, etech!!
-Rob
Thanks again etech6355 - very useful info indeed.
The DVD player is connected via component but it's not a progressive scan capable unit and doesn't have digital output - very cheap so that may be the problem to start with!
I'll try this when I can get my hands on a better DVD player. My other player (connected to the CRT) is far superior but still not progressive scan capable.
Will I get better results if/when I burn to Blu-Ray and play on a 1080i (or 1080p) display?
It certainly looks AMAZING playing the AVCHD straight from the camera to the above mentioned LCD. I've only done this via a component (RGB) connection yet and not even HDMI (which both camera and LCD have available - just don't have the optional HDMI cable for the camera)
The DVD player is connected via component but it's not a progressive scan capable unit and doesn't have digital output - very cheap so that may be the problem to start with!
I'll try this when I can get my hands on a better DVD player. My other player (connected to the CRT) is far superior but still not progressive scan capable.
Will I get better results if/when I burn to Blu-Ray and play on a 1080i (or 1080p) display?
It certainly looks AMAZING playing the AVCHD straight from the camera to the above mentioned LCD. I've only done this via a component (RGB) connection yet and not even HDMI (which both camera and LCD have available - just don't have the optional HDMI cable for the camera)
Webcombo,
My HD cams only shoot in standard DV or standard HDV.
When I shoot indoors with low light I set & adjust the exposure manually.
All my recordings are standard HDV - 1440x1080i.
Your questions about 24P mode can be answered better on the HV20 forum.
http://www.hv20.com/
Peter, progressive scan only works on hdtv capable tv's, you probably knew this.
Not sure what's up with your LCD, maybe the dvd player is having a problem with the dvd encoded at such a high bit-rate. Usually that causes stuttering, not pixelation.
My HD cams only shoot in standard DV or standard HDV.
When I shoot indoors with low light I set & adjust the exposure manually.
All my recordings are standard HDV - 1440x1080i.
Your questions about 24P mode can be answered better on the HV20 forum.
http://www.hv20.com/
Peter, progressive scan only works on hdtv capable tv's, you probably knew this.
Not sure what's up with your LCD, maybe the dvd player is having a problem with the dvd encoded at such a high bit-rate. Usually that causes stuttering, not pixelation.
I am a frequent visitor of hv20.com and find them to be very helpful. Unfortunately, most of the members are using Vegas and not many that use VideoStudio. So I didn't know if maybe VS has an easier way outputting using the 24fps. From what I have read in the past, the process for pulldown is mind numbing. I don't know if it has been simplified, but about 6 months ago (when I last looked) there were lots and lots of steps, and I didn't see how VS would fit in to any of them. Do you have a different user name over there?