Cannot Burn HD DVD's

[scottdeane]

Hello guys,

I have VideoStudio 11 plus with extra pack installed on my desktop and laptop. The software appears to work fine - I can produce 4.7GB DVD's in standard res, but neither system will burn from the same (new) media in high definition - and that's why I purchased 11 plus!. The media is known good. A symptom: before, during and after the burn, the data size is less than 1/2 the capacity of the 4.7GB media, with all green in the bottom space bar. Yet at 99% complete, I get an error message that the image is to large to fit onto the media. I select OK to proceed anyway and the sesion completes with a message saying the operation is successful.

The DVD's produced from these attempts are only good for coffee coasters.

Is this the expected result of selecting OK when told the image won't fit?

Why would the indicated size of the image be less than 1/2 of the capacity and after rendering not fit?

By the way, the media type is properly set and indicating 4.7GB. Previous recordings come very close to the 4.7GB capacity and play with no issues.

thanks,
Scott

What's up please?

[etech6355]

In the HD-DVD Burning Module if you click on the Disk Type you have the following selections:

HD-DVD on DVD 4.7 Gig (Standard Single Layer DVD Disk) - This is the most commonly used setting
HD-DVD on DVD 8.5 Gig (Dual Layer DVD Disk)
HD-DVD 15 Gig (Single Layer HD-DVD Disk)
HD-DVD 30 Gig (Dual Layer HD-DVD Disk)

What do you have it set at?
If your using single layer this setting should be 4.7 Gig to match your media.
That BOX where you select the type of media is not that big to see. It's not hidden and then again it doesn't jump out at you.

BTW - Motion Menus, Menu Transitions, and background audio can add alot more space to the project. Especially if you set the length of the motion menus to a high value and include background audio with it.
If you are using Background Audio check your Project Settings under the GEAR Icon, it's probably set to LPCM audio.
Changing this to Dolby audio will reduce the disk space used.

[scottdeane]

Thanks for the reply!

Yes, set for HD-DVD on DVD 4.7 Gig. Technically a HD-DVD is unique media, isn't it - different from the DVD in our computers? I guess that's why the dropdown has "on DVD" following "HD-DVD".

What I am attempting to do is to get 1080 lines to fill my new HD TV from my HD camcorder. I would assume I'd need a progressive scan DVD player. I am still in the dark ages, having just taken the plunge into the world of HD. Will the "HD-DVD on DVD" setting allow me to create a DVD that can play on a progressive scan player? I have a dual layer DVD and assume if this works that it will produce 8.5GB discs that can be played as well.

Sorry again for the stupid questions, obviously I haven't done all of my homework yet.

Lots of backround audio - basketball game.

Where is "Gear". Sorry for the dumb question - this is a lot to take in. It isn't in the index - darn, I may have to read every word in the users guide...

[scottdeane]

Found the "gear". It's under the HD-DVD on DVD drag down. Yes - not set for Dolby.

thanks! I guess I'll try burning again. Again, I assume the resulting HD DVD will require a progressive scan player, correct?

[scottdeane]

Coaster #3 produced - running out of cups!

Setting is correct at HD-DVD on DVD. Used Dolby for audio compression. The short clip was reported as a successful operation and the app ejected the DVD.

It is unreadable by either computer. What gives? I confirmed that my hardware can read both original and backup copys of video DVD's.

Another question. Assuming I can get past square one, will my dual layer DVD burner and VS11+ produce a progressive scan disk comparable to what's commercially available - by that I mean, will a 1.5 hour movie fit on it? If not, why not? If so, what would the proper VS11+ settings be?

thanks,
Scott

[Ron P.]

The only answer I can provide is about fitting the same amount of video on your burned DVD as that of a commercially produced one.

No that's probably not possible, to do so, and get the same quality. The reason being that DVDs we produce are burned, and VS, DMF, or whatever consumer program only provides 2-pass encoding.

The commercial DVDs on the other hand are pressed, and they use encoders that provide up to 20-pass encoding. They can really tweak, fine-tune, and get the bitrates adjusted at the precise locations, allowing for lower bitrates yet very high quality, and provides for more video/audio on a disc.

You could do the same if you want to spend the money that the commercial producers spend on the encoders. However I'd rather buy a new house, instead of a little box..

[etech6355]

Another question. Assuming I can get past square one, will my dual layer DVD burner and VS11+ produce a progressive scan disk comparable to what's commercially available - by that I mean, will a 1.5 hour movie fit on it? If not, why not? If so, what would the proper VS11+ settings be?

It may take a book to answer all that.
You need to provide some information for anyone here to help out.

What make/model of HD-Camcorder do you own?
What mode did you record the videos in? (High Definition or Standard Definition)
What are the Video/audio properties of your source videos?
What equipment do you have to playback High Definition Video to your HDTV.

So far, we know you have a dvd player, a HDTV and a dual-layer dvd burner.

Whether your HDTV and/or dvd player is a progressive scan/player has nothing at all to do with what you appear to want to accomplish.
Progressive Scanning on a HDTV is only a "Display Mode". When they make HDTV's they can't possibly expect everyone to re-format or specially compile their videos to playback on the HDTV they bought, either interlaced or progressive. That's the Players job of outputting the correct signals (Display Modes) that the HDTV are capable of.
Your job is to keep the videos in as close to the same video/audio format parameters they originated from.

Example: Standard DVD Home Video -> DVD Player Converts the Home Video to Progressive Format -> Output to a HDTV that can perform progressive scanning.

Need some more information to find out exactly what your doing wrong.

[scottdeane]

Thanks again guys.

To keep on track, the #1 issue is that I can successfully burn SD on single layer DVD media, but produce coasters when attempting HD creation. The computers (laptop and desktop) and my old DVD player work fine with the SD discs I create.

When selecting HD DVD on DVD (4.7GB) everything appears to work fine with the opperation successful at the end and the disc is ejected. The computers cannot play this disc (using the supplied "Intervideo WinDVD 8, or any other DVD player for that matter). I didn't expect the non-progressive scan player to work with this HD DVD disc; the purpose of creating it is to eventually burn a double layer HD DVD and take it to the video store when purchasing a progressive scan player (Blu Ray is a bit expensive yet).

Both computers have MS XP and SV11+ with the bonus pack installed. Everything runs well. The desktop is only a Pentium 4 with hyper threading, 2.5GB RAM and runs around 3.4GH. The laptop is a Dell Precision with Centrino Duo 2.33GHz, 3.25GB RAM. Both computers create identicle coasters.

Questions, secondary priority; the end goal - overall strategy. Answers:
- the camera is a Canon HG10
- recording mode set for 16/9, highest definition/quality.
- properties of the source are all AVCHD with the hard drive, of course. I Imported with VS11 and also tried from files created from the Canon backup utility with no apparent difference. VS11 is very happy with the editing and writing. After all, I can successfully create SD DVD's with the same setup.
- playback device at this time is a Sony non-progressive scan. Model DVP-NC615, which will do up to MP3 and has never had issues with any previous RW media (it plays the SD DVD's I created).

I would appreciate any advice on purchasing a progressive scan, or I may spring for a Blu Ray on sale, to be ready for cost effective burners and media. I think it may be a while for the media to become reasonable, however.

thanks!
Scott

[etech6355]

The HD-DVD's you are trying to make will not playback in any dvd player.
You would need a HD-DVD player to do this, such as the Toshibas.
When making HD-DVD's you will get max of 20minutes on a single layer & 40 minutes on a dual layer.

Because of the above limitations for HD video on DVD's they developed your camcorders codec, which is AVC/H264. This is more a derivative of the Blu-Ray Disk Format. You would do much better buying a Blu-Ray Disc Player ex: PS3 versus a HD-DVD Player.
To playback your HD videos on a dvd you create an AVCHD disk.
Search on etech6355 in the VS & MF forums for tips on making & playing back AVCHD disks.

If you had a Sony Playstation 3 it will playback what you want, in disc mode and file mode. On the PS3 you can simply copy your HG10's video files to a media and play them back directly to your HDTV. The PS3 supports all the HDTV video display modes including 1080P.

So you make an AVCHD disk and play it back on the PS3 to your HDTV to playback the same as dvd's do with menus and all. You can get alot more video on an AVCHD disk compared to a HD-DVD because of the higher compression used in the AVCHD format. That is why it was developed.

Burning Dual Layer dvd's in VS may be a problem. Can you make DL standard DVD's (not high definition). That may actually be another issue anyway.

[scottdeane]

So the HD DVD's that were made by the computer (my coasters) are not readable by the computer? That seems strange...

Obviously I need to do some more homework. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. It does appear that a Blu Ray player is the way to go. Creating AVCHD discs and playing them directly - losing the least amount due to CODEC changes in between.

I would think this would take no renering time as well - unless I edit. Is this true?

What is the approx play time of a single layer AVCHD please?

I assume I could burn a dual layer AVCHD, with approx double play time..

thanks,
Scott

[etech6355]

So the HD DVD's that were made by the computer (my coasters) are not readable by the computer? That seems strange...

If VS burns the disk correctly after you hit OK the disk should be ejected from the burner.
So time out on this issue. You said VS reported an error at the end of burning, correct, an error burning the disk? Or XP reading the disk? Or Both?
Your in a catch 22. First, the HD-DVD format (that you have been trying to make) uses a UDF 2.6 file system. Windows XP cannot natively read this (even on mine with packet writing software). Windows Vista can natively read the UDF 2.6 file format.
AVCHD disks after burnt are not readable by XP. Only Vista.
Software programs that can playback AVCHD disks or HD-DVD disks can play them back in XP, but you cannot view the disk contents via windows explorer.
So, do you have bad burns or maybe just a limitation of windows XP to read the UDF 2.6 File Format, I think a Catch 22 unless you have a HD-DVD player or windows VISTA.
Years ago all the talk was computers were going to be easier to use............I told you this could fill a book .

I would think this would take no renering time as well - unless I edit. Is this true?

That is correct.
Again, your camcorder uses the AVC/H264 video format w/Dolby Audio. It's High Definition files are smaller in size compared to a HD-DVD disk. The avc/h264 videos are almost half the size, depending on the bit-rates used. So you can put at least twice the amount of videos (in playing time) on an AVCHD disk compared to a HD-DVD disk. By the way, AVCHD disks are burnt only to DVD's, single or dual-layer. A Blu-Ray disk is a BDMV disk.

You probably need to stay out of the HD-DVD burning Module if your inserting compliant AVC/H264 video into it. The reason I say this is that in the HD-DVD spec's avc/h264 is also complaint video. So if your source videos are avc/h264 they will be passed through the encoder and onto the HD-DVD on DVD disk. Problem is this, HD-DVD disk format burnt to DVD using AVC/H264 will not play that format on the Toshiba HD-DVD Players, but if you used a real HD-DVD it would work. So when making HD-DVD you need to use hd-mpeg video, which uses a lot of disk space. This is not a Ulead decision in the program, it's a manufacturers limitation & choice.

The HG10 is a nice camcorder, great video.
What you may want to do is create an AVCHD disk of your source videos and burn an AVCHD disk. Take this to a local store and test it on any Sony, Panasonic or Pioneer Blu-Ray disk player, or a Sony PS3 if available.

[2Dogs]

Problem is this, HD-DVD disk format burnt to DVD using AVC/H264 will not play that format on the Toshiba HD-DVD Players, but if you used a real HD-DVD it would work. So when making HD-DVD you need to use hd-mpeg video, which uses a lot of disk space. This is not a Ulead decision in the program, it's a manufacturers limitation & choice.

Talk about a can of worms! It makes you wonder what if anything was agreed when they set up the standards for the new discs and players! If I'm reading this correctly you're saying that, although you can write AVCHD to a regular DVD disc, it won't play in a Toshiba HD-DVD player.

I can only imagine that the decision to preclude the playback of such a disc on the set-top HD-DVD players was made with the intention to push sales of HD-DVD blank media. It's a real shame, since writing AVCHD to a regular DVD DL disc would allow a respectably long project, with DL media being reasonably inexpensive.

Could the AVCHD on DVD disc be played in a pc DVD-ROM or burner - or are users limited to playing AVCHD from their hard drives?

Sounds like the lack of support for the UDF 2.6 file system in XP is also a vehicle for pushing Vista!

[etech6355]

Talk about a can of worms! It makes you wonder what if anything was agreed when they set up the standards for the new discs and players! If I'm reading this correctly you're saying that, although you can write AVCHD to a regular DVD disc, it won't play in a Toshiba HD-DVD player.

Ulead will let you burn an avc/h264 compliant video file to a HD-DVD format structure. When you do this you have to burn to a HD-DVD disk and not a standard DVD. I believe the only reason standard dvd's burnt using the HD-DVD format is because they are somewhat backward compatible.
You can playback a HD-DVD burnt to standard dvd media on the computer as long as you use hd-mpeg2 video, it doesn't play correctly on the computer either if you add avc/h264 videos. The Toshiba players simply display a wrong disk on it's screen. I've heard of one person who claims to make it work, never heard how it was done, I'm not aware of anyone making it work yet, except on HD-DVD media.

I can only imagine that the decision to preclude the playback of such a disc on the set-top HD-DVD players was made with the intention to push sales of HD-DVD blank media. It's a real shame, since writing AVCHD to a regular DVD DL disc would allow a respectably long project, with DL media being reasonably inexpensive.

I think it's more a technical issue with the Toshiba players & related chipsets, the player may not be able to switch from one mode of playback to the other mode & vice versa, I don't know exactly why, only speculation.

Could the AVCHD on DVD disc be played in a pc DVD-ROM or burner - or are users limited to playing AVCHD from their hard drives?

The AVCHD format can be played back from / Hard Disks / SD-Media / Optical Disk(s) / either on a computer using software players or hardware players. The latest Panasonic Blu-Ray disk player lets you playback avchd video from it's SD Card Slot. If you own a panasonic avchd cam it's even easier, just put the SD card from the panasonic avchd cam into the slot and view your home videos. Or, use a software program and create an AVCHD disk the plays in the Blu-Ray disk player. For Home Videos the AVCHD format which is derived from the Blu-Ray Disk format and burnt to standard dvd's or other media is going to be the best choice for awhile, until one type of high capacity disk becomes economically feasible to purchase. Remember how much the first dvd burners & dvd-r's disk cost when they were first developed.

Sounds like the lack of support for the UDF 2.6 file system in XP is also a vehicle for pushing Vista!

I don't think so, these new file formats are updated to add more features than the previous specs. The biggest push by Microsoft for Vista was better system protection and enhanced security with other improvements. Running Vista today I crashed a program at least 20 times, It was my fault, testing out various avc/h264 spec's that throw the playback software into total confusion. Never had to reboot once. Vista has much better system protection if you don't go and install non-vista crap on it, like universal codec packs and all.

[scottdeane]

Those coasters I produced are in fact readable in Vista! Thanks for that info!

That is very strange. I didn't think it possible for software to be written such that you could produce a disk that the software couldn't read. That is stupid! Software is not my thing (actually a hardware eng), but it sounds like a driver issue to at least be able to read the media format.

Is there one place where most of this information is available? I need to start with the big picture and so far I have only found bits here and there. Thank goodness for you guys in the forum for the help so far!

So that's what I am up against when producing a AVCHD disc as well? That is unacceptable in my mind, to blindly produce discs that can't even be verified or used on the native machine they were created in.

Regardless, I believe with my HG10 camera that AVCHD is the way to go. Less decoding and reincoding - that has to hurt quality. More data on the media. Seems like a no brainer.

I am not willing to move to Vista, however. There must be some application on an XP machine that can read HD DVD and AVHCD when produced on DVD media.

Man that HG10 camera rocks, doesn't it! Did you guys see the anouncement Canon made this week of the new models? The hard drive is out - probably too fragle for most users. Flash is in. 16GB internally with a flash card slot. Still AVCHD.

thanks again!
Scott

[Ken Berry]

Sorry to butt in so late, but for what it's worth, your experience only confirms in my mind that the one format I will not touch on a camera is AVCHD. Just too difficult -- and as you will see from my System button, I have the equipment to process it and play it back to verify. It may sound as though it has its attractions, but to my mind, any format which is so demanding of system resources and so picky about whether, how and when it might playback is just not worth the bother when there are excellent alternatives available. I will be buying a HD video camera in about a month, but I have most definitely ruled out an AVCHD one... Sorry...

Perhaps one day, when things get a bit easier with it, yes. But not now.