VS11 burned DVD video hangs or stutters

[babyleon]

I have a project with a video track that contains both .mpg clips and .avi clips. It is an update of a bird identification DVD that I have been addiing to for three years. The .avi clips are from recent uploads from my Sony mini-DV camera (that I have used for all of the filming). The .mpg files are from previous years' filming from DVD and DV files. Right now there are a total of 262 separate video clips, about 140 of them have transitions and I have inserted 50 chapter points. There are more than 140 titles. There are a number of added audio tracks, mostly on the music track but some are also on on the microphone track. The various video/audio/mic clips are contained on three or four external Firewire drives. The total project length is 1:08:29.18 and because of the length, I have not created any menu in the rendering process. Without any menu, it is well within the capacity of a single layer DVD blank.

When I render the project using "Create Disc" in "Share" and burn it to a DVD, the result is video which hangs up and stutters. Sometimes it seems to just stop momentarily and then continue. Other times it stops for several seconds on one frame before continuing. This occurs both on clips that were .mpg as well as clips that were .avi in the project.

I have gone through the process quite a few times and used two different DVD burners on my computer and have played the resulting DVDs on several different players as well as on my computer. I have also burned to both +R and +RW media of different manufacture. This has all been over the course of the past few days and I have shut down and restarted the computer many times and have attempted the process sometimes with other applications running, and sometimes with no other applications running. The resulting DVDs always have very noticeable video defects of the same nature.

If I play the project in VS11 before starting the rendering process (in either the "Edit" or the "Share" tabs) it plays fine with no video defects. If I choose "Project Playback" in "Share", it plays fine with no video defects. If I create a DV file, it plays fine with no video defects. However, if in "Share" I proceed to the "Preview" step and press "Play", the same video defects are apparent. And if I create a .ISO file and burn it to a DVD with another program, the same video defects are apparent. Also if I create a DVD folder in the "Share" process, it too has the video defect.

My VS11 is version 11.0.0157.0 Plus and was downloaded. I paid extra to be able to download it for 12 months and I am well within that timeframe but I have not attempted to re-install the program. I am afraid that might alter or eliminate this project on which I have spent many hours to update.

I admit I am not very savvy on allof this but I have not been able to find a common denominator to isolate the problem or get around it.

Any advice or suggestions would be very greatly appreciated.

[Ken Berry]

I suspect -- though you might need to confirm -- that what you are doing is stringing together all your various clips in the timeline, adding your audio, doing your other editing, but then you go to Share > Create Disc without first going to Share > Create Video File > DVD. Doing the latter will blend all your disparate DVs and mpegs into a single DVD compatible mpeg-2. Once you have that, you save your project (File > Save) and start a new one. Don't worry about a name for it -- the objective is just to clear the timeline.

Then you go to Share > Create Disc, insert your new mpeg-2 into the burning timeline, make your menu, preiview and burn. Also, make sure 'do not convert compliant mpeg files' is ticked in the middle of the three icons in the bottom left of the burning screen. You should not have to adjust any of the properties in the burn module.

If you are not doing this but going straight to Share > Create Disc, you are asking your computer to render what sounds like a complex project, at the same time and as part of an already complex process of multiplexing the video and audio and actually burning. Some people do this all the time successfully, but for many other users, it falls over sooner or later. For some, it never works at all.

So give the workflow I outlined above a try. See how the single mpeg-2 plays back. And let us know.

One other thing -- I trust that all your previous mpegs which you are using are Lower Field First. Your DV footage is all Lower Field First, and a basic rule of video editing is that you have to maintain the same Field Order throughout a project. If you get that wrong, then the parts of the project with the wrong field order will play back jerky and with jagged edges on what are supposed to be straight lines, particularly in fast moving or panning shots.

[babyleon]

Thank you so much for the reply.

You are correct that in my current project all my clips are strung together in the timeline, along with my audio and titles, and that I have gone direct to Share > Create Disc which has resulted in the video problems. I did also try creating a video file via Share > Create Video File > DV, When I put the resulting large .avi file in a new project timeline and tried to burn to disc, it seemed to hang up, with no apparent hard drive or computer activity, very early in the rendering process, and stay at the same "Progress" level for several hours and at which point even "Cancel" would not work and I would have to exit VS11 via the old Ctrl-Alt-Del, Windows Task Manager method.

Based on what you suggested I tried the following with my complicated project: Share>Create Video File>DVD/VCD/SVCD/MPEG>NTSC MPEG2

After a few minutes of apparent activity on the Firewire drives that hold the various project files, an "MPEG Optimizer" dialogue box appeared. It had a drop-down menu with several choices and a horizontal bar graph with red and green segments of varying sizes. (This is a first for me as I have not taken this path previously.) The apparent default choice in the drop-down menu was "NTSC DVD (720x480/VBR-8000KBPS) - 21.39%". I think there was also a statement to the effect of "21.39% Savings" Each of the other choices also reflected a percentage but I did not write any of it down and went with the apparent default choice and clicked on "Accept" at 9:47 pm. The resulting 4.2+ GB .mpg file was finished at 11:20 pm.

I started a new project and inserted the new .mpg file in the timeline. I still did not create a menu or re-add any chapter points or auto-add any chapters. I used Share>Create Disc and took a look at the "Preview" and it looked okay with no apparent video defects. When I went to the burn menu I did not see the choice for the non-compliant mpeg files and therefore do not know if that was checked or not.

The rendering of the new DVD took 2:19:24 total elapsed time.

When played in my computer or a DVD player, the new DVD video does not freeze as long as in previous DVD attempts but the video is still annoyingly jerky, whether the project source was an older .mpg clip or a .avi clip just uploaded from the camera this year. The video was equally jerky.

Am I still doing something wrong?

I still have all my related mini-DV tapes and could upload all tapes from 2005 and 2006 again. But that is more than 30 hours of tape and would require a lot of time (and hard drive space) to upload, review, select/re-edit clips and re-edit the project. And I certainly don’t want to do that if the result will be the same.

I previously used VS8 and never experienced similar video defects even when using a mix of source clips, though not as many.

[Ken Berry]

As I said, you should have chosen Share > Create Video File > DVD and not NTSC mpeg-2. Though a DVD compliant file is an mpeg-2, it does not necessarily have the same properties as 'NTSC mpeg-2'. I am also surprised that the Optimiser window popped up. That has never happened to me, and I confess I have never used the Optimiser since I think it is better suited to HD video.

As for the Do Not Convert Compliant Video box, did you not look, as I said, in the middle of the three icons in the bottom left of the burning screen? It is called Project Settings when you hover your mouse over it. At the top is a set of properties which will be used in the burn. Immediately below that are the words 'Do not convert etc' with a box beside it which MUST be ticked. Otherwise, the burning module will convert your new 'NTSC mpeg-2' once more -- and from the time you said the burning process took, it is doing precisely that. With my computer (see my System button below), a one hour project, especially with no menu, would take only around 30 minutes to burn, not over 2 hours...

Apart from anything else, reconverting already converted mpeg-2 will degrade the quality as mpeg is a lossy format. But conversion simply should not happen if the mpeg file you inserted in the burning module was already DVD compliant, which it would definitely have been, no doubt about it, if you had chosen Share > Create Video File > DVD!

And for a project the size of yours, with no menu, using the pre-set DVD template in Share > Create Video File > DVD, it should all be less than the limit allowed on a single layer DVD if you also used one of the highly compressed audio formats like Dolby or mpeg layer 2.

[babyleon]

In trying this again, I have reloaded my original project (takes about 2 minutes to load)
Then Share>Create Video File
After about 2 more minutes, a drop-down menu with the following choices appears:

Same as project settings
Same as first video clip
MPEG optimizer
DV
HDV
DVD/VCD/SVCD/MPEG
WMV
MPEG-4
NTSC DVD (4:3, Dolby Digital 5.1)
NTSC DVD (16:9, Dolby Digital 5.1)
Custom

Under the DVD/VCD/SVCD/MPEG the choices are the following:
NTSC DVD 4:3
NTSC DVD 16:9
VCD
SVCD
NTSC MPEG 1
NTSC MPEG 2

This last choice (NTSC MPEG 2) is what I mistakenly chose the last go round.

I assume I should choose DVD/VCD/SVCD/MPEG> NTSC DVD 4:3 and I will proceed with that this time. Or should I go with the first drop-down menu choice of NTSC DVD (4:3, Dolby Digital 5.1)? I don’t see any plain “DVD” choice in any of the menus under Create Video File.

I just determined that I still get the exact same MPEG Optimizer pop-up if I choose either DVD/VCD/SVCD/MPEG> NTSC DVD 4:3 or just NTSC DVD 4:3 (4:3, Dolby Digital 5.1) and both show the same “21.39% Savings” default as in my last try. I will proceed with the DVD/VCD/SVCD/MPEG> NTSC DVD 4:3 and “Accept” the “Optimal project settings profile” default of “NTSC DVD (720x480/VBR 8000 kbps) – 21.39%”

In review of my last try, I do see the three icons you mentioned and it seems the default for that mpeg compliant box to be checked so I assume it was. But I will make sure it is this time.

Thanks again for the speedy and considered response. If I am still seem to be heading on the wrong track, please let me know.

I will post again when the next DVD pops out!

[babyleon]

Well, I proceeded as indicated above. Rendering video via Share>Create Video File> DVD/VCD/SVCD/MPEG> NTSC DVD 4:3 took about 1:50:00. Inserted resulting file into timeline of a new project. With no menus, chapters and with mpeg compliant box checked, LLF etc., burning the DVD took 2:25:37 total elapsed time. Resulting DVD is still jerky, both older .mpg clips and brand new .avi clips result in jerky video……..

Oh well…… Guess I will try rendering to a NTSC DVD (16:9, Dolby Digital 5.1) file and then burning is next but I don’t expect anything different at this point.

Am I missing something really obvious here????? Is there a plain “DVD” choice for rendering that I am missing?

[Ken Berry]

Can you right click on one of the older mpg files within Video Studio and copy all the Properties here please.

Something is clearly wrong if you are rendering a DVD compliant mpeg-2, but it is still taking so long to burn a disc. That implies that it is rendering it all over again, which it should not be doing if the Do Not Convert box is ticked.

[babyleon]

File Name: R:\BELIZE 2005\TAPE 15 CROOKED TREE CHAN CHICH\UVS061214-002-36.MPG
File Format: NTSC DVD
File Size: 47,560 KB
Duration: 50.551 seconds
Video Type: MPEG-2 Video, Lower Field First
Total Frames: 1,515 frame(s)
Attributes: 24 bits, 720x480, 4:3
Frame rate: 29.970 frames/sec
Data Rate: Variable bit rate (Max 8,000 kbps)
Audio Type: LPCM audio
Total Samples: 2,426,426 Samples
Attributes: 48,000 Hz, 16 bit, Stereo
Layer:
Bit Rate:

The above is from an old (from 2005) .mpg video clip in the project.

Thanks again for the guidance.

[Ken Berry]

Well, that looks fine too, and if all the mpgs have much the same properties and are all Lower Field First, there is no obvious reason for your problem.

One thing, though, how big exactly is your new mpeg-2? Again, right click on it within VS and just give us the file size.

And let's try something different. This time, with your edited video still in the timeline, go to Share > Create Video File > Custom. A dialogue box will appear, and there is a line for a file name (give it one), and the next line is 'Save as file type'. Choose MPEG files. The properties in the box below will probably be something like this:
MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 576, 29.97 fps
Lower Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8000 kbps)
LPCM Audio, 48000 Hz, Stereo

Those properties will allow for 1 hour of video to be burned on a single layer disc with very high quality. But to fit on the extra 8 or 9 minutes of your project, you might need to vary the properties. You do this by clicking on the Options button on that dialogue box. Then select the Compression tab. Go down the bottom and change the audio from LPCM to Dolby Digital Audio, and leave the next box down as 2 channel (L/R) since you don't have 5.1 channel audio in your existing video. Click OK, then click on the Save button. A new mpeg-2 will be produced with those new properties and it should fit on a single layer disc. (You could also do this by reducing the bitrate from 8000 kbps to 7500 but leaving the LPCM audio but try the Dolby route first.)

This time, also, in the burning module, don't actually burn to a disc. That is only wasting blanks. Instead, choose DVD Folders as the target (click on the double downward arrow to the right of the window for Recording Format if this choice is not already visible. This will make a Video_TS folder of your project and you can play this back with a software DVD player like Power DVD or Win DVD. That way you can check how it looks without wasting a disc. If it is OK, then you can use a program like Nero to burn the Video_TS folder to an actual disc.

[babyleon]

The file size of the new .mpg file is 4,204,042 KB

Concerning the different approach, do you mean I should start off with the new .mpeg file in the timeline or with the original project file in the timeline. I assume it’s the original project file but I want to make sure I am doing this correctly. Since I am creating a video file, I will proceed starting with the original project file in the timeline. Please let me know if this is incorrect.

Again, thank you for bearing with me on this.

[babyleon]

Another question: If I edited my original project file so it was less than 1 hour in length (nowhere near as daunting a task as starting it over) would the problem be resolved?

At this moment Iam creating the new video file from my original project file through the Custom function as you suggested and I will let you know the result. The last several times I have been erasing/burning to a +RW disc to not waste blanks and I have also tried Folders as well. I will use the Folders this time.

[Ken Berry]

Sorry about the delay in replying, but I am on the opposite side of the earth to you, and I need to get some sleep some time!!

But yet, I certainly meant to produce a new DVD-compatible mpeg-2 from the project in the timeline.

The size of the earlier mpeg-2 would certainly fit on a single layer DVD, though if you used the default 'DVD' template in Share > Create Video File > DVD, this uses a bitrate of 6000 kbps, which would make the file lower by itself, but is couple with LPCM audio which tends to inflate overall file size. Try the 8000 kbps (or 7500 kbps) bitrate couple with Dolby dual channel as suggested and see if the file size is still below 4.3 GB as suggested.

[babyleon]

I know what you mean about the time/distance/sleep thing! That, and the long times it sometimes takes my computer to do this, is why there are often long gaps between my posts on this subject. At least you are going into summer! It has been snowing here the past few days (though not a lot and I don;t mind it a bit).

By way of a progress report, using my original project file, I created a new Video File via the Custom options as you suggested (that took @ 1:50:00) and then rendered to a folder and DVD (that took 1:58:40 total elapsed time). Unfortunately, the result is the same – still jerky video from both old and new project video clips. The resulting new .mpg Video File size was 3,663,554 KB

Next I will give the bitrate adjustment method a try but I am not too optimistic at this point.....

[Ken Berry]

I am really not sure what more I can suggest. Your computer is very similar to mine in its resources. The rendering time to produce your new mpeg-2 sounds about right. It is what mine would take.

But again, I can only say that something is clearly going wrong in the burning module since it should simply not take that long to do its thing. It is clearly re-rendering, and that is what I do not understand! For a project that size, with no menu, it should take definitely no more than 30 minutes to produce a Video_TS folder or burn a DVD at 4x speed (more on a slower RW disc...)

Can we go back to the editing stage for a moment. Ok -- you have gone through the Share > Create Video File > DVD or Custom routine. And 1 hour 50 minutes later you have a new mpeg-2.

As I have said, at this point you save your project (File > Save). Then you open a new project ( File > New Project). At this point, your existing project should disappear from the timeline. Can you confirm that this is exactly what you do and that your editing timeline is empty.

Now with the empty timeline, you go to Share > Create Disc. And the Burning module opens. Now its burning timeline should be empty at this stage, and you have to use the Add Media button at the top to manually load your new mpeg-2 file.

Now my worry is that somehow or other, you haven't followed these exact steps and that you leave your project in the editing timeline. Then when you go to Share > Create Disc, the burning module opens and there is something in the burning timeline already. If so, then this is most definitely the cause of the re-rendering during the burning process which should not otherwise be occurring. This is because what appears automatically in the burning timeline in these circumstances is not your new mpeg-2 file, but your project file! It will look exactly the same as your new mpeg-2, but in effect it has not yet been rendered into a final video. So VS knows that it has to render it during the burning process.

One way to test is to finish your editing, produce your new mpeg-2 of the project, save the project then close Video Studio altogether. Shut it down. Kaput. Then re-open it, and simply go straight to Share. At this point, the only button which should be active will be Create Disc. And if you click that, the burning module will most definitely open with an empty timeline and you have no alternative but to manually add your new mpeg-2 with the Add Media button.

[babyleon]

Sorry for the delay in posting.

What I had been doing after Create>Video File>Custom was open a new project and insert the new mpg file in the empty timeline and THEN go to Share, etc. So I guess I was in fact re-rendering the project which also probably explains why the MPEG Optimizer was popping up. Yes?

When, as you have suggested all along but which was not getting through my feeble brain, I empty the timeline, go directly to Share and then open the new mpg file via the Add Media function, the burning process (folders and disc) takes only 0:13:57. The total of the rendering process of about 1:50:00 and the burning process of about 0:14:00 pretty much adds up to the total Burn time I was experiencing under my mistaken workflow, further supporting the re-rendering theory.

One of the things I did yesterday, besides shoveling snow, was go back into my original project and further edit clips, both by shortening some and eliminating others. This reduced my total project length to 1:02:06. I can do some more of this which might also support the "less is more" content editing guideline.

However, in spite of all of this, the result, both Folders and DVD itself, is just as jerky as ever. I will go ahead and try reducing the bitrate to 7500 to see if that does anything but I suspect not since the file size does not seem to be a problem. I will try a couple other things as well and post again when I have some results.

I can't say enough how much I appreciate the help you have provided and the assistance this Forum provides in general. This is just not available anywhere else.