Elementary streams

DiscCoasterPro · Post by **DiscCoasterPro** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:03 pm

Hello. I wonder if anyone could verify that this result is normal.

I'm having just a ton of trouble importing from Adobe Premiere.

If I import a rendered dv-avi file it comes out jittery like a field order issue when dealing with mpegs. ( I have set advanced, and it is LFF)

So, I have to fight all the "guesstimates" on bit rate in Adobe, and export as an mpeg to DVDWS.

Problem is Workshop won't recognize any audio when I do this GRRRRRR...

So I export two individual streams m2v and pcm wave.

Sigh .....

Now the question ... If I trim a start point and end point with these elementary streams, is it normal that the audio goes out of sync?

thanks.

ps
geez, I wish I could get this working with dv-avi from PPro. I just purchased that sony architect studio and it is NOWHERE as intuitive as Workshop.

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:11 pm

Workshop is not an editor, so if you cut the video you don't change the audio...... do all editing before you come to WS.

Which version of Premiere are you using?
I used Prem 6.5 for years with WS2 but unfortunately as I had procoder I used this to do my encoding to mpeg and would take in seperate video and audio, changing the audio to ac3 within WS. I did do some work with dv.avi's but I can't remember if I had any trouble with them - don't think so.

I could try it if you want, but I'm at Micorsoft this weekend so it'd be next week now.

DiscCoasterPro · Post by **DiscCoasterPro** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:21 pm

I'm using Premiere Pro 2. the in and out points are a minor issue and actually I'm glad to hear that its normal for the program not to auto sync the audio. Too many avi related things in this program have me scratching my head.

For example, if I capture (vhs) with the canopus 300 using Workshop's capture module and simply create a dvd from that resulting avi right in DVDWS, no problem.

If I close WS, and bring that same dv-avi into Premiere for any type of editing, after I resave the timeline as dv-avi and bring it back into workshop its trouble. Jitters and all. BTW, an experiment of the exact nature, only using DVDit Pro to menu, resulted in a smooth video.

*edit As I write this, I am currently burning a DVD using an edited dv-avi file from Premiere, this time the authoring program is that new DVD Architect Studio. It was 39 bucks. Certainly no DVDWS, but we'll see if the product is smooth as it should be or jittery like WS.

I have a strange unjustified feeling the reason WS creates this jittery thing may have to do with the audio pcm adobe makes in its dv-avi file. Purely a guess. I think WS may not like it, but other Authoring programs don't mind it.

I really don't mind doing the encoding in WS, the only thing that is annoying with Premiere is that estimating the largest bit rate isn't anywhere near as clear cut as it is with WS.

DiscCoasterPro · Post by **DiscCoasterPro** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:05 pm

FYI, the Architect program produced smooth video. but is nowhere near as flexable as DVDWS.

Ahh..... I'm gonna waste a few more dvds. I'm going to import this avi and see what happens in WS

If it is jittery, I'm going to run it through Windows Movie Maker and resave as an avi then try again see what the heck is going on.

DiscCoasterPro · Post by **DiscCoasterPro** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:22 am

Here are various test burns and the results.

1. DV-AVI captured in DVDWS from a Canopus 300 menued and burned right in DVDWS. Result .... NO PROBLEMS

2. Same DV-AVI brought into PPro 2 and clipped to a smaller segment. Re-rendered to DV-AVI and brought back to DVDWS for menu and burn. Result .... Jittery field order type issue. In checking the PPro defaults it shows LFF setting.

3. Original Canopus DV-AVI once again. This time brought into Adobe Premiere Elements 2. clipped to a shorter segment and brought into DVDWS same as in #2 above. Result ... smooth as silk

4. The kicker. The small #2 segment from PPro2 brought into Elements timeline. Nothing done but to export that timeline as dv-avi. Brought back to DVDWS and burned. Result NO PROBLEMS

DB83 · Post by **DB83** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:21 pm

Why are you wasting disks ?

Save the project. Burn to HDD folders instead of to disk and test the 'burn' with a software dvd player such as PowerDVD.

Of course the forum is NOT to discuss Adobe products. Why not just use a ULead Editor - dvd compliant MPEG2 straight out of the box.

DiscCoasterPro · Post by **DiscCoasterPro** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:46 am

DB83 wrote:Why are you wasting disks ?

Save the project. Burn to HDD folders instead of to disk and test the 'burn' with a software dvd player such as PowerDVD.

Of course the forum is NOT to discuss Adobe products. Why not just use a ULead Editor - dvd compliant MPEG2 straight out of the box.

I'm wasting disks cause I have a ton of them and I can't duplicate an interlaced replay with a PC file on a computer monitor. Thats pretty basic.

I'm not discussing Adobe products specifically for their sake, it just happens to be what I'm using. I'm trying to determine if Ulead DVD Workshop was sensitive to any particular DV-AVI codecs or if any hidden settings may be the problem from within DVDWS.

As to why not use a Ulead editor. Thats simple. Because it can't do what PPro can. I use DVDWShop though, and thats what I'm trying to figure out here.

Why not import an mpeg compliant file to begin with, because it is much more accurate to tweak the final bit rate in DVDWS when I start with an AVI

Now I have a question. Why don't you tell me whats wrong.

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:27 am

Instead of exporting from adobe in DV and then importing that to DVD Workshop which will have to re-render it to a DVD Compliant MPEG2, would it not be more efficient to render from Adobe in DVD compliant MPEG2 and import that. All that DVD Workshop would then have to do is create the DVD Menus rather than have to convert the video to make it DVD compliant.

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:16 am

Wasting disks? All my trials are on DVD+RW. No waste!

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:42 pm

Devil wrote:Wasting disks? All my trials are on DVD+RW. No waste!

Similar to the above, I burn to a hard drive folder first then check it with a software DVD player.

DiscCoasterPro · Post by **DiscCoasterPro** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:50 pm

guys, honestly, I'm fully aware of RW discs. I'm not as concerned about wasting a few discs as I am about re-creating the exact situation.

I'm deathly afraid of Murphy.

My luck at the expense of a few cheap discs, I'll use an RW and find issues on set top DVD players that I may not have otherwise had.

I don't know what the heck is causing this and I don't want to add any more variables to this mess than necessary, no matter how insignificant they may be.

As far as encoding in Premiere and importing to DVDWS, yes I can of course do that, and I have with complete success. The downside is the Abobe program is a pain in the butt when it comes to accurately figuring out how much bit rate quality I can burn at. This compounds with the fact that the dang DVDWS program won't take an mpeg-2 and only an m2v and a wav seperately. Now I have to figure out the wav compression also.

All this bull, is eliminated by simply putting the avi into DVDWS.

Whenever possible, (and thats when the need for advanced features are not needed) I edit with Abobe Premiere Elements, which strangely enough re-encodes the timeline to dv-avi and DVDWS has no problem with it.

Its just frustrating because it isn't logical that these two programs act differently. Also it isn't logical that the problem PPro dv-avi file encodes without any issue in either Architect or DVDit.

I like DVDWS and I simply want to try to get to the bottom of this if possible. I appreciate all the help along the way.

DB83 · Post by **DB83** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:30 pm

I have a suggestion for you as I am not familiar with PPro - although I thought that MSP8 (I use MSP7) can do just as much. but I could be wrong

The suggestion is this. Prepare some short clips from PP2, one dv and one MPEG-2 WITH audio which have proved incompatable for you with DVDWS. Upload these to yousendit or some other file-sharer and let us have the links.

As for the bit-rate for the PCM audio, surely there is only one - 1411 kbps

DiscCoasterPro · Post by **DiscCoasterPro** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:56 pm

DB83 wrote: As for the bit-rate for the PCM audio, surely there is only one - 1411 kbps

thanks I will work on this over the weekend and if I can't come up with something I'll surely take you up on the offer to look the files over.

As for the PCM, yes I know that one bit rate,but since I cannot import a multiplexed mpeg into DVDWS without loosing the audio, I have to seperate the two.

What I'm saying is, I have to figure out how high I can go with bit rate to fit the m2v on a single layer DVD, then .... I have to consider the space savings by the encoding of the audio PCM down to Dolby, add the two together, and hope I'm right.

Import the two to dvd workshop and see if I over or under guessed. Don't you think simply importing a dv-avi and letting DVDWS figure all this out automatically is a bit easier?

DB83 · Post by **DB83** » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:49 pm

Sounds terribly complicated

Which is where the option of Hard Disk folders really wins. So you have over-cooked it and find you have a few hundred bytes more than would have fitted on one disk. All is not lost. Use a brilliant little utilty called dvd-shrink which does what it says and shrinks your video data-rate to precisely fit on to a single-layer disk (the sound is left un-affected) Then re-burn the folders with another burning program.

But I'll eagerly await the files as I find it strange that Ulead cannot handle a Mpeg-2 with audio as I do this all the time. I'll only use separate streams if I need to have more than one audio track. Of course many dvd authoring programs insist on separate streams but I do find that this is a bonus with Ulead.

DiscCoasterPro · Post by **DiscCoasterPro** » Sun Oct 28, 2007 11:58 pm

I'll try to get a sample as soon as I can. I appreciate your help.

I'm aware of DVDShrink but of course taking that mpeg in there once encoded in order to make it fit, will do exactly what I'm trying to avoid, which is making a second generation mpeg encoding. That would result in an unnecessary quality loss since mpegs are a lossy compression type..