Camcorder - hard drive or mini DV

Gordy · Post by **Gordy** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:08 am

I need to purchase a new camcorder, and need to know which format would be best suited for recording to dvd's.
I understand that the hard drive camcorders use a compressed video format which is not quite as clear as the minidv camcorders.

I will be using VideoStudio to edit and burn my videos to dvds.
so my question is will the video from the minidv camcorder be downgraded to the level of the hard drive camcorder in order to burn to dvd, or will the quality of the video be better from the minidv camcorder.

if the video quality from the minidv camcorder will be better when burned to dvd then I will purchase the minidv, if it is the same as the quality of video from the hard drive camcorder then I would get that one.

Also and suggestion on camcorder in general is appreciated, I am hearing that right now it is not worth paying the price for a hard drive camcorder as the quality is not there. any suggestions on that.

thanks
Gordy

Post by **lancecarr** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:14 am

Do you want to go with High definition or Standard definition?

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:19 am

And how much editing will be involved?

Gordy · Post by **Gordy** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:32 am

I was thinking just Standard Definiton, Hi Def camcorders are pretty expensive right now.

I do fair amount of editing, as far as adding titles and music.
But the actual video I dont mess with too much except maybe just changing to slow motion of certain clips.

Post by **lancecarr** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:37 am

Right now you will get more bang for your buck (actually a LOT of bang) by going with a high end Mini DV cam and sitting on it until the HiDef format wars are over.

Go over to Camcorderinfo.com and check out the reviews.

The format is tried and tested, great quality and built for editing.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 2:53 am

This is a sitting on the fence sort of answer, though personally I would never buy a hard disk camera. First, at the moment, the hard disk sizes are limited, and what happens, say, if you are travelling overseas and doing a lot of filming. Essentially, you also have to have a computer with plenty of disk space to transfer video and free up space on the camera. No doubt that will change, and do doubt we will start seeing a lot more manufacturers producing cameras that don't use hard disks but instead the sort of card currently being used in a small number of new video cameras. But as it is, it is much easier to carry a number of small DV cassettes around and they are relatively easily purchased around the world these days.

Second, there is a variety of formats used by the hard disk cameras. Essentially, they are all mpeg-2, as you know, but they come in quite different flavours and some, like JVC's Everio series, wrap them in their own proprietary formats (.mod) which require further (and sometimes considerable) mucking about in order to be able to transfer it and convert it into a form usable by Video Studio. Granted, some other editing packages may be able to read those formats with ease. But this is just by way of a note of caution when buying a HDD camera to make sure you know which format you are getting and thus tailor your editing package purchase accordingly, not the other way round.

Now all that being said, DV definitely gives a better image quality, and in a format which is virtually loss-less after editing. On the other hand, high quality mpeg-2 i.e. taken with properties which make it high quality, will not be significantly of lesser visible quality i.e. you probably would not really notice any significant difference in quality between DV and that HQ mpeg-2 with your naked eye.

And certainly I have found that to be the case when I have converted (as everyone has to) my DV original video to DVD-compatible mpeg-2 to burn to DVD. But that is of course again using high quality settings for the conversion (notably a video bitrate of 8000 kbps). Use a lower bitrate, and the quality of the mpeg-2 correspondingly diminishes.

The main problem with mpeg-2, though, is of course editing it, and a variety of problems can arise -- out of sync audio and video being a common one. Mpeg-2 is also inherently lossy i.e. each re-render/conversion causes a loss of quality -- small though cumulative. Many people nevertheless edit it with success. I guess the secret is to try to keep the amount of editing to a minimum, use SmartRender where or if you are forced to re-render mpeg-2, and try to keep the bitrate fairly high for a high quality end product.

So there you are: if you want better quality original video AND ease of storage and acquisition of the storage medium (tapes), AND virtually lossless and much easier editing, I'd would go for a mini DV camera. If you want something that films in roughly the same format as your final DVD, or don't intend to do much editing or simply want to connect the camera to your TV and play back what you have filmed unedited, then go for the hard disk one.

DVDDoug · Post by **DVDDoug** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:02 am

I (and some others) have had some problems with some MPEG files. I have an MPEG only capture card, and I had to buy a special purpose MPEG editor.

At this time MiniDV (captured to AVI/DV) is the most trouble-free format. The more compressed the format, the more likely you are to have trouble.

Direct-to-DVD cameras are getting very popular, so I assume Corel and its competitors will need to improve the MPEG editing at some point.

MPEG-2 itself is not a problem. DVD is MPEG-2, so you can take the MPEG-2 "data" from a hard-drive-recorder and "re-package" it to DVD format without altering/degrading the actual video data.

However, there are some MPEG editing issues that cannot be solved. Most "real editing" (anything other than simple cutting & splicing) requires the video to be de-compressed, edited, and then re-compressed. Since MPEG is lossy compression, you loose some additional quality with the 2nd compression. This may, or may not, be noticeable depending on many different factors. (DV is compressed too, but it's much less compressed and much less-lossy.)

Gordy · Post by **Gordy** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:39 am

Thanks alot Guy, thats great info:

If I had decided on the HDD camcorder it would have been the Everio, not knowing about the .mod format, I would have been in for a surprise when editing with VS. I am glad I asked.

Also running out of space while away on a trip was a concern I had aswell.

I will just go with the miniDV for now, very inexpensive and I am already familiar with the editing as I have been using the HI8 camera with VS and am quite familiar.

Again, thanks for your time.

Gordy/

Post by **Ken Berry** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:19 am

The .mod extension is not insuperable. Some people, I understand, use the software which comes with the camera to transfer it to the computer and, I believe, convert it to mpeg-2. Some people just manually change the .mod extension to .mpg and apparently that (often) works. Anyway, if you want more info, use the Search function above and use '.mod' as the search parameter in Video Studio and you will get an avalanche of info.

As for your possible purchase of a mini DV, I just bought a Canon MV960 a few months ago to replace an ageing Canon MV430i that finally bit the dust. The new one cost literally a third of what I paid for the older Canon and of course has a host of new features, including genuine widescreen 16:9, not to mention being even smaller and lighter.

You haven't told us which version of Video Studio you are using. But if it is VS11+, then you need to be aware of this (and pardon me if you already know it). I see you also have a Hi8 analogue camera. Most recent digital mini DV cameras allow themselves to be used as a bridging or 'passthrough' device, allowing you, say, to connect your Hi8 to it via the AV connection, then you connect the mini DV to your computer via Firewire, and you can convert your Hi8 to digital DV via the mini DV camera. You may want to check in advance, anyway, that the mini DV camera you buy does this. It can be an incredible boon if you have a large library of analogue video you want to convert to digital, and the end quality is very good.

That worked a treat with all versions of VS *before* VS11. Unfortunately, Corel decided to replace the variety of capture plug-ins of older versions which worked very well, with a single new one. Unfortunately, it will not allow for capture of analogue source material via DV passthrough, which is an enormous shame. Corel have been aware of a tidal wave of user complaints about this virtually since VS11 was released in April, and we have been tantalised with suggestions that a patch is coming soon, but you've got to wonder six months down the track! So if you have an older version of VS, hold on to it if only for your analogue-to-digital transfers!

Gordy · Post by **Gordy** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:22 am

As I have been shopping for the minidv camcorders, I have another question which you guys may be able to help me with.

Some cameras offer a usb interface and some with firewire.
Which would be better, I was thinking usb as all pc's have it, but with firewire a card has to be installed.

When using VS to capture video can it be done just as fast with the usb port compared to the firewire?

thanks

heinz-oz · Post by **heinz-oz** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:41 am

When it comes to DV-AVI, firewire is the most reliable option. The USB cable on both my MiniDV camcorders is used for transferring the still images to the PC and one can also stream low grade video for internet use via the USB connection.

High quality DV-AVI is the best format for editing. Most newer PC/Notbooks do have a firewire port these days. Depending on the brand it may be called iLink, IEEE1394 also. The cable is virtually never supplied with the hardware and needs to be purchased separately. Firewire PCI (PC) or PCMCIA (Notebook) add on cards are relatively cheap these days.

Gordy · Post by **Gordy** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:50 am

Thank you kindly.

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:08 am

Some new dv camcorders have a firewire & usb spec2 port. The usb spec2 can transfer full dv after installing the drivers. Canon's work OK. The best method for dv transfers is firewire, make sure you get a cam with a firewire interface.
If the cam only has a usb port I wouldn't buy it. Figure on using the usb connection to transfer pictures from the SD card.

Using a firewire connection & VS you can capture DV & realtime convert it to Mpeg2 video. The usb connection does not support this and will generate an error when trying to capture. So firewire connections can support on-the-fly conversions to mpeg2 & the usb dv capturing cannot.

Any cam I've seen that just has a usb port are the harddisk cams or the mini-dvd ones, the cams that natively record in the mpeg2 format.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:28 am

Or to put etech's last comment another way, no mini DV camera does NOT have firewire. Every one of them has it -- Firewire was developed to transfer DV... Most will also have a USB port, though as pointed out above, unless they are very new and at the higher end of the price scale, the USB is usually only USB 1 and not for transmitting DV -- only, at most, low quality streaming video and, more usually, still photos taken with the video camera.

The problem is that no camera manufacturer of which I am aware ever includes a firewire cable with the camera, yet inexplicably a USB cable is always provided... which naturally causes users to think they should use that. Big mistake.

And yes, you need to check that your computer has a firewire port. Many do, though you should do a Google search for photos of the two kinds of DV port so you can look for it on your own computer. Normally, the computer has a larger 6 pin variety (though some firewire cards also include a smaller 4 pin variety). However, your camera will only have the 4 pin port. So if you have to buy a firewire card and cable, make sure you get a 4 pin to 6 pin cable. Normally these come with the card.

And fortunately, the latter are dead easy to insert into a spare PCI port on your motherboard. When you reboot the computer, Windows will recognise the card and install the drivers internally -- nothing required by way of drivers on a CD or anything. And best of all, they are also pretty cheap -- I can get them here in Australia for around $20. (Ironically, the last one I bought came with a full version of VS8 on the accompanying CD...! Not even a crippled SE version...)