What format to edit with?

[zenguitar]

I have a Canon HG10 that I just bought and I've very quickly learned that the file format is quite new to say the least. The only program that will even convert the file from the camera properly is the media SE program that came with it. And I wouldn't consider it to be doing a particularly good job either. Even though Visual Studio 11 claims it can work with the avchd/h.264 format it will not open these files in the native format in the least.

I do have the option of converting down to mpeg2 with the media program the camera came with but is that the best format to edit with in Visual Studio? I can import the file this way but it looks different in the timeline, I don't see it frame by frame, its one image of the clip and then grey space for the length of the clip. It just doesn't seem right and the program does not seem to run very well even with the mpeg2 format.

My computer is brand new,
Intel core 2 duo @ 3.0ghz
4gb memory
320 gb drive
Nvidia 8800 video card
Win XP sp2

[BrianCee]

First - the programme we discuss in these forums is called VideoStudio - Visual Studio is a somewhat different programme from Microsoft.

The best format to edit with in VideoStudio is DV-avi if you can convert to that.

I regularly edit mpeg2 videos without problem - can you elaborate on your statement "the program does not seem to run very well even with the mpeg2 format" - it doesn't say very much that anyone can help you with.

To change the view in the timeline so that you can see all the frames go to "File >> Preferences" and approximately half way down the new window is a drop down against 'Clip Display Mode' - change the drop down to read "Thumbnail only" - click OK and return to your timeline.

[zenguitar]

First - the programme we discuss in these forums is called VideoStudio - Visual Studio is a somewhat different programme from Microsoft.

Sorry, hehehe, you'll have to excuse me, I'm a systems analyst and work with the Microsoft products every stinking day

I'm half new to video editing, I've done tons of video converting, encode - decode to change formats but this is my first time getting into actual editing as I just finally got my own camcorder.

and I had wrote up a big response to this and clicked post and my whole message was lost. arrgh.

Ok, what I mean is when I convert the .m2ts file to a mpg2 @ 8000kbps 720x480 @ 16:9 via DVD Maker 5.6 and have it burn the DVD, the resulting movie played back on the TV is frankly horrible. It was like watching streaming video over the net.

It makes me the think DVD maker that came with the camera just did a bad job of converting the file.

Is the new Video Studio supposed to be able to open the .m2ts file? When I try and import it, I get an error about the file format. I'm converting the file to an .avi with no compression right now and will try that. I'm hoping that I can get a better looking DVD that way.

thank you for the tip on how to change the clip in the timeline.

[MrA]

Sorry, hehehe, you'll have to excuse me, I'm a systems analyst and work with the Microsoft products every stinking day

I'm half new to video editing, I've done tons of video converting, encode - decode to change formats but this is my first time getting into actual editing as I just finally got my own camcorder.

Welcome to the forums! First thing you need to do is fill out your profile and system specs. (It helps a LOT to nail a solution down)..

AVI is very close to a raw format, which is the best for editing (It's really a transport protocol).

Converting from Mpeg to AVI, you are going to experience degradation of the video. Mpeg, for all practical purposes is similar to jpeg images, they have a Lossy algorithm, i.e., you change it, you lose quality.

VS has the ability to ONLY recode the CHANGES made to Mpeg files, so, with caution don't make many changes! More typically, changes can include transitions from one clip to the next. This may or may not be that big of an issue, as the transition actually may not be that noticeable.

Point is, if you can capture in DV - AVI, then edit in DV - AVI, then convert based on your target, i.e., DVD, the web, local PC, etc.

[zenguitar]

Hey there

I added to my profile,

Ok, so when converting the original file that comes off the camcorder to .avi I have to use some form of compression right? I should point out if I haven't yet that I have a Canon HG10 and this records to hard disk via AVCHD format.

So anyway, I just did a quick test and when I converted the .m2ts file to .avi with no compression the 1 minute video was 3.91gb. That isn't right is it?

[Ken Berry]

Uncompressed AVI is huge, and it takes about 65 GB for one hour of video, so in fact nearly 4 GB for one minute sounds wrong....

I would wait, if I were you, until someone with knowledge of AVCHD comes along to answer your questions on this. Unfortunately, I know little about high def cameras and video. What I *do* know is that VS11 has considerable problems at the moment with AVCHD video, but Corel is (apparently) working on a patch. They recently brought out such a patch for the companion software Movie Factory 6+, which I understand now happily captures and processes AVCHD without a problem. Hopefully it will be the same when they patch VS11+.

[zenguitar]

Awesome, thanks Ken.

Yep, I did quickly find out that this format is incredibly new. It was happenstance that I got this camera because this camera only came out to the market about two weeks ago I believe.

I'm honestly considering returning it and looking for a HDV camera as that format is much more widely accepted. Although this Canon is so nice to use I really want to be sure that I make the right decision if I choose to stay with it or not.

I really want to be able to edit some home movies though

I will download the trial for Movie Factory 6+ and see if that is better.

[etech6355]

I really want to be able to edit some home movies though

I suggest the Canon HV20 DV tape since you seem to like Canon. Great cam, records in hd-mpeg2 and many programs support capturing & editing this format. Technically it's called HDV format. The Canon HV20 can record in a few formats so if you plan to capture & edit the footage make sure when you use it to record in the standard HDV mode.

You bought a avchd cam. If you bought a HV20 and captured the HDV video which is really superb video from the HV20 you can always convert it to the avchd format which is what the HG10 records in. .

Don't bother with MF6+ trial. Either buy it or don't use it. MF6+ works with Patch#2, you can only install Patch# 2 if you purchase it.

VS11+ needs a patch to work better with your existing cam.
If you don't return it, and decide to keep it then you would want to convert the videos (avc/h264) to hd-mpeg2 for editing. They would technically be HDV video files. So in order to edit the avchd videos you would need to convert them to hd-mpeg2. HD-Mpeg2 is what the Canon HV20 natively records in.

The avchd format uses very high compression scheme that has taken many software companies a year to write the code to work with it.

The previous posts were suggestions to you how to convert & work with standard defintion video. Does the HG10 have a s-video out or composite out connector? I would just plug it into a dvd recorder & be done with it. Then you can import the recorded dvd into VS & edit the videos.

Good luck, post back whether you returned the cam or not.
The HighDef cams that record in an editable format are Canon HV10/HV20 & Sony HC1/HC3/HC5/HC7, all dv tape based cams.

I think manufacturers are trying to produce cams now that have very few moving parts. They are so small.

[etech6355]

zenguitar,
If you cannot return the cam (actually a really nice camcorder).
I've loaded some of the HG10 video files into MF6+ converted them for edting and everything went quite well. I converted the h264 source videos to their HD-DVD equals of hd-mpeg2. The videos playback fine, no problem. So with the HG10 & MF6+ you can create HD-DVD's or AVCHD Disks to view on a HDTV.
You can also export the videos individually for computer playback or sending / sharing over the web / email.

The only left that you need is to learn is the video field itself, editing & producing etc.

[zenguitar]

I agree it is a really nice camera and I enjoy using it. I would prefer to see this work rather than have to return it. I have 3 weeks left that I can return it with no questions asked.

So you are saying that you used Ulead DVD Movie Factory version 6+ and it read the files right off the camera just fine? I downloaded the trial of that just now and it will not read the .m2ts files at all. When I try to import them I get file format mismatch.

[zenguitar]

Don't bother with MF6+ trial. Either buy it or don't use it. MF6+ works with Patch#2, you can only install Patch# 2 if you purchase it.

Hmmm, this certainly defeats the whole purpose of trial software doesn't it? I don't know yet if I want to purchase it. The whole reason I'm pursuing this brand is the software that came with the camera is Corel software but its the older version of Movie Factory and it doesn't do a whole lot and I really feel it's conversion from the avchd file to an mpg2 is subpar. But it does open the .m2ts files. Possibly the new version is better at it, but I of course can't test that without paying for it.

Don't say anything either about me buying a $1000 camera and not being able to buy software....I'm married, there is no logic here, hehe.

I would need the HD plug in pack to use with Movie Studio correct?

It would certainly seem better to me if Video Studio 11 could open and work with the files right off the camera but clearly the cart is ahead of the horse on this.

The camera has composite out and HDMI out. I would have to capture to the PC and I do have a capture card so I suppose I could try that. I would be happy working in SD DVD quality files as I only want to produce a DVD anyway cause hardly anyone has blu-ray hd-dvd players yet. I would then keep the original camera files for later on.

Thanks for the help and sugggestions guys

[etech6355]

Interesting, when I read the ad on th Canon site I saw MF was supplied with that camcorder. Curious on what version of MF that is. Most likely whatever version its probably a SE (special edition) version. But check on this, if it is MF6 you may be able to install MF6+ Patch# 2 which fixes many issues.

If you do want to purchase MF6+ full version I would contact ulead first because you may be able to do so at a cheaper price (upgrade).
You don't need the HD-Burning pack ($20.00) to make dvd's or Mpeg2 files..

[zenguitar]

Thanks etech,

The version that came with the camera is 5.6 SE. Good idea about contacting Ulead to see if I can get an upgrade, I can probably get my wife to pony up on the extra dough if I can do that.

and thanks for confirming on the HD pack, I know I don't need that at the moment because I only want to produce DVD's. In the future I'll start doing HD-DVD or blu-ray when that becomes more promenent of a format.

Can you tell me what settings you used when converted the .m2ts file to HD-DVD and have you converted down to SD DVD files yet with that? If so how did you think the quality was?

I do imagine that when Video Studio version 12 comes out will probably be able to import the avchd file right off the camera right?
It would seem logical to me to use one editing program for the import/edit/file-disc creation right?

[etech6355]

zenguitar,
Yes, if VS11+ is patched correctly it's geared more for the technical side of video editing. What I would suggest to do is read & start learning about the various video formats, master the mpeg2 format that is standard for dvd's. There is simply to much that applys to explain in one post. That's why sometimes you will see some posts go unanswered. It would take a book to answer some questions.
Persons that aren't familar with video editing formats and purchase a avchd cam are technically challenged. Call it jumping into the fire.

Later I will convert some avchd footage in MF6+ and produce a dvd, then view it on my players. This way I can confirm it's downconverting properly. I've only been using the program for HDV (high defintion) conversions.

The settings in MF6+ that I use to convert the avchd videos to it's HDV mpeg2 equal. You click on the GEAR icon -> Change MPEG Settings -> Customize to do this. Best to make a template first and just apply the template.
In MF make sure under Preferences (F6 Hotkey) to set the quality to "BEST"

HDV - High Definintion Mpeg2 Template
NTSC Settings: (Use 25fps for PAL)
FrameSize = 1440x1080
Fielding = Upper Field First
Quality = 100%
Video Bit Rate = Constant 25000kbs
Audio = Mpeg Audio, Stereo
Sampling Rate = 48khz
Data Rate = 384kbs

DVD Standard Defintiion Template
NTSC Settings: (Use 25fps for PAL)
FrameSize = 720x480
Fielding = Upper Field First
Quality = 100%
Video Bit Rate = Constant 8000kbs
Audio = Mpeg Audio, Stereo
Sampling Rate = 48khz
Data Rate = 224kbs
Note: You can use Dolby Audio - Mpeg or lpcm is suited more for future editing.

If you want to make dvd's in MF then start a dvd project, make your project settings as posted above for DVD, insert your m2ts files, click on the Export button/Icon & select "Fast Export DVD Compliant".
Save the video and then view it.
I have no idea how well your version of MF performs a conversion.

I'll let you know how well MF6+ with Patch# 2 does.

[2oolate]

Zen.

I have the Sony SR1 which came with an import/viewing application called Motion Picture Browser. Unfortuantey when MPB imports the files it removes the directory format that VS11+ is looking for. So until the patch comes out, instead of importing my video using MPB or VS11+, I just use windows explorer to move the entire contents of my camcorder hd to a local directory. From there I use VS11+ to import the raw files into my project. This works reasonably well, and I don't have to conver the video before I output it.

If you want to use your already imported files, you can recreate the camcorders directory structure but it's a time consuming task. Here's the instructions for doing this...

top folder (choose a meaningful name to you)
AVCHD folder in the top folder
BDMV folder in the AVCHD folder
CLIPINF and STREAM folders in the BDMV folder
you'll also need a MOVIEOBJ.BDM and a INDEX.BDM file in the BDMV folder
under the STREAM folder are the actual video files with just .MTS (remove the 2)
under the CLIPINF folder are the .CPI files (one for each .MTS file) with the same name as the video clips

If you don't have a MOVIEOBJ.BDM, INDEX.BDM and .CPI files to start with, just shoot any short burst of video on the camera and use the .CPI file from the camera and then create multiple copies. I don't exactly know what these files do, but VS doesn't seem to care provided it has one for each .MTS file.

Good Luck!