Can AC3 or MP3 be added without re-encoding?

[miamicanes]

I captured a 2-hour video to DV-AVI using an ADStech pyro, then split it apart & encoded it into a 4.03-gigabyte m2v file (5700kbit/sec 2-pass VBR) and a ~64mb ac3 file (64kbit/sec CBR). When I import the m2v file into a new DVD project, the size shows up correctly. If I proceed to the 'burn' page at that point, it reports the size as 4.07GB (4.3GB). HOWEVER, when I add the audio track to the video, the size requirement suddenly explodes by a GIGABYTE, from 4.3gb to 5.3GB.

I observed that DMF6 does the same thing if I try to feed it a 128kbit/sec CBR AC3 file (~130mb) and a 64kbit/sec MP3 file. Every time, the total size balloons to 5.3 gigabytes.

Wait. It gets better. If I REMOVE the audio track, the "size required" remains unchanged at 5.3GB. Once DMF6 decides it's going to take 5.3 gigs, there seems to be nothing that will change its mind besides killing the project and starting over. But like I said, if I add the video to a virgin project and proceed straight to the "burn" page, it's perfectly happy to burn 4.3 gigs worth of data.

I think it's obvious that DMF6 is re-encoding my audio (into raw PCM, from the looks of it... dear god, a GIG?!?). So... what do I have to do to make it NOT re-encode the audio, and simply interleave it with the video data "as-is"?

[DVDDoug]

Well... MP3 is not DVD compliant, so it's going to convert that to AC3 or LPCM per your project settings.

Did you check the box that says, Do Not Convert Compliant MPEGs? Are your project settings AC3, or LPCM? It is also possible that it does not recognize your AC3 as compliant for some reason. Does your version of Movie Factory support AC3? (If you've got an old version or an SE version, it may not)

Also, try "burning" the project to your hard drive. On the Burn window, check the box that says Create DVD Folders and un-check the box that says Create To Disc. As it proceeds, it should report if it's "converting audio" and/or "converting video" and when you're done, you can check the size of teh new VIDEO-TS folder.

You should also be able to feed Movie Factory the AVI/DV file and let Movie Factory encode the MPEG-2 & AC3. Or, feed it an already compliant (already multiplexed) MPEG-2 file, and check the box that says Do Not Convert Compliant MPEGs.

[miamicanes]

Here's exactly what's happening:

* Start new project

* Add m2v file. It's 3.96GB (4,157,695KB). Green bar at the bottom reports the size as 4.07 (4.36) GB.

* double-click new video's icon, go to music tab, click 'Add Audio', select AC3 file encoded using AviSynth's SoundOut plugin (it comes with libaften.dll) at 64kbit/sec. Click "OK"

* Size bar is now WAY past yellow into red. It claims the size has increased to 5.11 (5.49) GB.

* I go into Project Settings, and note that "Do not convert compliant MPEG files" is checked, and "Treat MPEG audio as non-DVD compliant" is NOT checked. Looking in the MPEG settings box, it lists the audio data rate as 256kbps, with Dolby Digital Audio, 48KHz, 2/0(L,R).

* I click "Change MPEG settings", go to the "compression" tab, and note that 'Audio Format' already says "Dolby Digital Audio", but the audio bitrate says 256kbps. I change it to the minimum, 128kbps, then click "OK" twice to get back to the main window.

* Oh joy. My file size decreased to 5.02 (5.39) GB. Well, the amount makes sense with regard to how big it would have been at 256kbit/sec vs 128kbit/sec, but it's still taking up an unholy amount of space relative to everything else on the disc. Even at 256kbit/sec, the audio shouldn't be more than 400 megs.

I know there's probably a certain amount of inefficiency with encoding the two to the disk, but damn, I've used DMF on and off going all the way back to version 2, and I've NEVER seen it soak up almost a GIGABYTE just to multiplex a 4-gig video file with a paltry 100-meg audio file! Incidentally, un-checking "create menu" shaves another whopping .02GB from the file size -- down to 5.00 (5.37) GB.

Something is wildly wrong. Either it's grossly overestimating the amount of space it's going to need to mux the two together, or it's ignoring my compression settings and planning to mux it as PCM anyway. I'm leaning towards believing it's a bug, because if I delete the audio track entirely, the space requirements don't decrease at all.

Sigh. I was actually about to buy it tonight, but I can't buy it now until I'm confident that this has absolutely, positively been fixed by bugfix #1 or 2 (which I can't apply since I'm running the TBYB version...), because this would be an absolute deal-breaker if the real version had the same bug.

As for letting DMF do all the encoding, that's not feasible. At least, not unless DMF can use Avisynth plugins (DePanStabilize, FFT3Dfilter, Deen, Tweak, Levels, and BlindDeHalo3, just to name a few), and its 2-pass VBR is at least as good as the best HCenc can achieve. From what I've read on other sites, that's pretty unlikely. I remember comparing the best DMF3 or 4 could do compared to TMPGenc a few years ago, and being pretty unimpressed.

[DVDDoug]

It sounds like Movie Factory is simply not going to accept your AC3 file. Maybe it's the low bitrate, or maybe there's something else it doesn't "like" about it... Maybe MF won't accept any externally encoded AC3 file. (I've never tried it.) If the AC3 encoder is unlicensed, the file may not be fully DVD-compliant. (If you got it free, it's not licensed by Dolby)

As for letting DMF do all the encoding, that's not feasible. At least, not unless DMF can use Avisynth plugins...

In that case, you might try feeding Movie Factory a pre-multiplexed file. (Or, have you tried that already?) ...Just use Movie Factory to make the menus and to create the VOB file structure. I assume AVIsynth can do that. If not, you can utilities to do it for you. But, there is still a possibility that Movie Factory won't accept the file as compliant.

...and "Treat MPEG audio as non-DVD compliant" is NOT checked.

I believe that applies to MPEG-2 audio, which is allowed on PAL DVDs.

If Movie Factory isn't working for you, you might want to look into DVD Lab. I don't own it, but it appears to be more flexible and it will give you more control over the project. ...I think it will allow you to make a non-compliant DVD if you wish. It's more of a professional program, and it doesn't try to do the project for you. It requires you to use 3rd-party encoders (and a 3rd-party burner).