jittery playback?-need help

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:04 pm

I am working on a time sensitive project. Long story short is my wife's 30 year old aunt passed away unexpectedly in Sweden. My wife went to the funeral and her Grandma (deceased's mother) got her to video the funeral in order to send to the relatives who couldn't make it there. I have been busy and trying to get this done quickly.

I made a nice dvd with edits, pictures,etc. However when testing the DVD, the playback is very jittery/choppy.

The original video was shot using Sony HC3 cam -1440 x 1080. I edited in msp8 and rendered once to DVD-NTSC (for US relatives)-100% quality, constant 8000 and rendered again to DVD-Pal (for Swedish relatives) -100% quality, constant 8000(I think). All the typical settings that I've used 1 million times.

I then made the dvd menu,etc. from my VS10 "create" feature using pal and ntsc accordingly.

Both videos are choppy after burning to DVD.

I have done this MANY times with near perfect DVD's. The only thing different since my last DVD is I upgraded my computer to a much better computer (quad core, 4 gig ram,etc.)

I tried to figure out what could be different since new cpu and the only thing I could find is I hadn't patched my VS10. I patched but same results.

I cannot figure this out and time is an issue. I have no idea why this isn't working while using same old settings. Is there something I've forgotten since it's been so long since I've reinstalled?

Btw, field order,etc. was left at what it defaults to-as always.

Thanks for any help...

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:03 pm

As this seems to be a VS10 problem, I'm moving the thread.

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:06 pm

Is it jittery when viewed on a computer/dvd player/both?

Sounds like a field order problem.

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:50 pm

>>>As this seems to be a VS10 problem, I'm moving the thread.

I think you understood...but to make sure I'm being clear:

I do everything in MSP and only the menu creation in VS10. I actually created an iso and burnt to dvd using nero.

>>>Is it jittery when viewed on a computer/dvd player/both?

I've only tried the burnt dvd(s) on a dvd player. I can try it on my cpu when I get home. (at work now)

I also don't *think it was jittery when viewing the rendered mpg before burning. I can't say for sure though because win media player is such a piece of crap and I had to reset my default to media player classic during all this. I can recheck that as well too.

>>Sounds like a field order problem.

I thought the same too but I believe I'm using the default that I always have.

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:53 am

hmm, confusing...

I got home and tested some things.

The PAL mpg is choppy.
The PAL dvd is choppy.

The ntsc mpg is NOT choppy *but I had already re-rendered it before leaving for work and tried to up the bit rate but it only let me go to 8200ish (from 8000) so that should be insignificant.

The ntsc dvd I made from the original ntsc mpg is choppy.

I made a new dvd from the new ntsc mpg and it is fine.

??

The ntsc mpg is lower field first -default and that's what I've always used.

The pal mpg is upper field first-it defaulted to this. Should pal be a different field order?

So maybe pal should be lower field first as well and there lies the problem.

But, why does the ntsc now work and it didn't before (I changed nothing except the minor change in bitrate. so if it's lower field now, it was lower field before.)?

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:17 am

I have no idea what is causing other aspects of your problem, but one thing is certain: you must always maintain the same Field Order throughout a project. So if the video started life as Lower Field First, it should be kept as Lower Field First throughout, from beginning to end. And this holds true for both PAL and NTSC. And you cannot mix LFF with UFF video in a single project.

The only time you can mix or change field orders is with slideshows, which of course consist of still images which in effect are not interlaced. These can be frame based or LFF or UFF, or mixed with either of the two latter, depending on the field order of any video you mix with a slideshow.

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:44 am

"one thing is certain: you must always maintain the same Field Order throughout a project. So if the video started life as Lower Field First, it should be kept as Lower Field First throughout, from beginning to end. And this holds true for both PAL and NTSC. And you cannot mix LFF with UFF video in a single project.
"

well, when capturing from my HC3 camcorder the video ends up 1440x1080 upper field first.

I have made quite a few dvd's going from 1440x1080 down to 720x480 mpg for DVD and then burned to DVD. I always render the 720x480 dvd with lower field first. Excellent results.

I have never tried rendering the 720x480 mpg with upper field first so I can't say that the way I've been doing is right. You are more knowledgable than me concering this so for all I know, I may have had equal or better results had I used upper field first.

*But...this wouldn't explain why my upper field PAL video is choppy. The source started as upper field and continued to be upper field and the end result is very choppy.

The lower field mpg that I've rendered is now (not previously) not choppy.

very confusing...

And to clarify, my project only has the upper field High Def vid and then still images. When I rendered the ntsc it defaulted to lower field. when I rendered the pal it defaulted to upper field. No upper and lower field was mixed within each project.

Thanks for your help...

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:10 am

Well, what can I say???

Maybe going from Hi Def to SD made the SD so high quality that the jerkiness normally associated with wrong field order was not noticeable. Or maybe the particular video you used did not have many fast moving scenes or panning, which normally highlights the jerkiness or jagged edges associated with wrong Field Order.

The one basic rule is always to check the defaults to make sure that at least the Field Order matches the orginal.

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:45 pm

"The one basic rule is always to check the defaults to make sure that at least the Field Order matches the orginal."

Yeah, I remember learning that from you guys when I first started with all of this stuff.

But I vaguely remember something about this before and someone saying that it might be different with the mpg HD or something...I could be wrong.

But anyway, I am going to test a few things and will see what happens. I will post the results so that we'll all know what happens in this situation.

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:32 pm

Ok, I re-rendered the ntsc with UPPER field first, constant bit rate, 8000.

The mpg looks good.

I then re-rendered the pal with UPPER field first, constant, 8000 and it's very choppy.

What gives?

Is there something I need to know about Pal that's different?

Post by **lancecarr** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:39 am

Just fishing here but is the original footage NTSC?
If so, converting to PAL means the program that renders the final MPEG is going to have to decimate 4.97 frames per sec to get down to the PAL frame rate specification of 25fps and maintain sync with the audio so that will cause choppiness especially in panning shots or motion shots.

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:15 pm

yes, the original is NTSC.

Your explanation makes a lot of sense. I wonder if that's the problem.

I guess I'm going to have to scrap the Pal version unless anyone has any other ideas.

Are the mediastudio guys still seeing this thread since it was moved? It definitely has nothing to do with VS.

I would think that with so many Euro users on this board that this ntsc original-> pal situation has been crossed many times. ??

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:35 pm

Read this from the Video Products Tutorials.

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:27 am

Thanks BlackLab.

The problem is that I don't use VS10 for any of this. I only use it for the dvd menu creation.

I use MSP 8. Devil decided to move this thread to the VS section for some reason. My only guess is that he didn't really read the message, he just scanned it.

I'm sure I could figure out these steps in MSP but it's not really worth it at this point. I will just send the dvd's in NTSC and they can watch them on their computers until they get a converter/new DVD player.

Thanks for your help.

Post by **lancecarr** » Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:42 am

Hi ebone,
The problem you have described will happen in VS or MSP and just about every editing suite on the market.
You are actually fortunate that your original is NTSC because "many" of todays PAL DVD players, even "most", will have a default setup whereby it detects the TV system of the disc automatcally. I think you will find that your European viewers wont even notice!
If any do then you can get them to go into the menu of the DVD player to see if it will play NTSC.
There are a number of software out there that claim to convert between the NTSC and PAL standards but most are useless, some are "ok" and only the very expensive pro ones really work.
These days it is not really worth it as even the NTSC players are beginning to accomodate PAL.