Changed field order but still jagged edges!

[ron s]

Hi
first post here. I'm very new to this filming business so please excuse my ignorance on certain matters.

SUBJECT: I'm using videostudio 10 and I feel I should be getting better picture quality than I have. I feel I've tried pretty much every setting within the program and have searched this site for similar problems and tried the suggested fixes to no avail.

Nature of the problem: This project is a Golf tuition DVD so the shots are primarily of 1 person against a golf course background swinging a club. On several shots there is a white fence in the distance at a slight angle to the picture, also the club itself as it's being held. Both these items create slightly jagged lines on the screen as the picture changes. (the effect is there on everything to a lesser degree. I have filmed other projects using the same setup but as these mostly involve close-ups the same effect doesn't seem to be there.

Properties of your source files: This was captured from a Sony HVR-A1E (as an mpg2 I understand)

What devices are involved and their mode of connection: Again the Sony HVR connected via DV connection (but in HDV)

Project Settings: I have tried several different combinations of project settings. UFF, LFF, Frame based and varying degrees of bit rate to very similar results (reducing the bit rate seems to exaggerate the problem but field order doesn't to have an effect. It's currently set at 25000 constant and UFF all the way through the project.

Output format: I have output the files to mpg2 and the pal DVD setting which I understand is the same thing.

PAL or NTSC: PAL

Error Codes (if any): None.

Thanks in advance for any help offered.

Ron

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Ron

If your camera is High Definition have a read at this tutorial.

You may have to set your capture properties within VS.
I believe this tells you how.

http://www.hd-video-editing.com/HDTutorial_Page1.html

[ron s]

Thanks Trevor.

I read through the link you sent but there doesn't seem to be any particular way of setting capture properties in any relevant way to solve this problem. The capture settings are initially automatic (as it mentions in the tutorial you only capture mpeg and the link from the HVR sets itself automatically).

IOW I can't see what to do any differently in the capture.

Thanks again for your help though.

Ron

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Ron

Check your capture and project properties. What are they?
Read the first para in page 4 from the tutorial.
http://www.hd-video-editing.com/HDTutorial_Page4.html

Do you have similar properties.

When you see the ("Do you want to set Project Settings to
Match Video Properties so Video Studio can do Smart Render?" )
Select ¡¥details¡¦

You can view the video properties in the right hand panel.

If you do not see this option¡XFile preferences tick ¡¥Show messages when¡K¡K..¡¦
Start a new project, then drag a file/thumbnail from the library to the timeline.

[ron s]

Hi again Trevor

Yes, the properties are identical, and they match the captured footage properties.

I've uploaded a short clip to megaupload if you'd like to view the issue. It seems to aggravate the problem if you use a clip as an overlay. It certainly looks like a field order problem, but changing field orders doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

Here's the link (I've deleted the audio btw), having checked it on my standard pc it stutters and displays some weird colours in the first couple of seconds (this doesn't happen on my editing pc) but it's the strange jagged wobble type effect on the repeat of the clip as an overlay that displays the problem best. Look at the club and the fence in the distance.

Thanks yet again for your time.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=O9DVL8TV

[MrA]

Hi

SUBJECT: I'm using videostudio 10 and I feel I should be getting better picture quality than I have.

Noticed in your system properties that you are using Vista. Did you patch VS10 to Vista? There is a specific update..

[ron s]

Yes, it's all updated with the vista patch.

Ron

[etech6355]

I downloaded and looked at the video.
Is the poor motion related to the golf club on the original video tape?
I would view the original video from the tape on a HDTV playing back from the cam just to make certain the source is correct. Maybe you need to use a higher shudder speed when filming if it is in the original, although what's somewhat confusing is he isn't swinging the club very fast, actually this shouldn't be happening, he's swinging the club rather slow..
Did you smart-render this clip so it's same as the original capture?
How did you export and create this clip from VS?
Did you maintain the UFF fielding including the project settings?
The video looks de-interlaced (frame_based) although when I inserted it VS says it's UFF. You never de-interlaced it or used a frame_based setting anywhere's?

[heinz-oz]

Just a hunch based on etech6355's observations. Did you slow-mo the motion and re-render the clip? If you want smooth slow-mo, you need to use a higher shutter speed or the natural motion blur will ruin the clarity of the image. Video taken with a higher shutter speed will look strange when played at normal speed but during slow-mo the video is crisp.

[ron s]

Hi
Firstly I really appreciate all of your responses, thanks.

etech6355: I did smart render it, the properties were the same UFF all the way through. I exported using the "same as project settings".
I had thought about shutter speed but as you mentioned this is when he's swings the club slowly.

Heinz-oz: I haven't applied slo-mo, this is the raw footage just purely being rendered in VS and exported.

On Etech's suggestion I examined the original captured footage (I don't have the original tapes as these were sent to the designer for still frames to be taken off). I feel the problem is there but very, very slightly, is it possible that VS is exaggerating the effect. Having examined all my other footage I can't see the same problem, though fast movement and zooming causes somewhat jittery footage I think this maybe a by-product of HD?

Here's a possibly stupid theory, this project is the only project with this issue. It also happens to be the only project thus far I have used a wireless microphone receiver & transmitter. Is it at all possible that by anchoring the reciever on the side of the camera I could have caused this effect.

Any more thoughts?

Ron

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Ron

I think you need those tapes back to play from camcorder to tv.
Is the problem still apparent there?

You can clearly see a double image during the golf swing.
By the way the swing takes about 21 frames to complete, (from left to right) that¡¦s under one second.
Not fast, but your camera has to record the club moving over about 4 feet using just 21 frames.


I don¡¦t own any golf clubs but will run a test on movement across my cam-corder lens. (given time)

In the meantime I have looked at your video frame by frame and a pattern emerges.
The video advances one frame then still for one frame, then advances one frame then still for two frames
This repeats its self throughout the video. Strange I know. This does not occur with my own video files.

Can you check the original captured file. (use the digital clock to advance frame by frame¡Xwatch the club)

[ron s]

I can clearly see a doubling of the golf club as you say, on the rendered file. But definitely not on the captured file looking at it frame by frame in VS

I just put that 5-6 second clip of the club moving into VS as a new project (clicked yes to get it the same settings in VS,) checked it for double images (which it didn't have) then immediately shared it as a video file with the same project settings. On playback in VS as the rendered file it shows the double image problem.

Settings are:

PAL
MPEG
24 bits, 1440x1080 25fps
UFF
(mpeg-2) 16:9
VDR-25000

For captured files/Project properties and "share file as", so the settings do not change in the whole process.

So basically as soon as I render it, it displays double images.



Ron

[ron s]

Just to add:

I wanted to save an image of this doubling effect on the club. I found a frame that showed the effect and saved a still image but on looking at it the image is fine (no double club).

Is this normal for a 'save as still image' to differ from what's displayed on the screen at the time of saving?

I'll wait for responses while quietly rocking back and forth in the corner

Ron

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Ron

The only way for us to see the original file without it being rendered, is for you to capture the video again, just capture 6 seconds of the golf swing.

Unfortunately you don¡¦t have the tapes, at the moment.

Smart Render. Just a thought.

Using your original file render the 6 second video again but disable ¡¥Smart Render¡¦
From the window where you name the file press ¡¥Options¡¦¡Xuncheck ¡¥Smart Render¡¦

[ron s]

"Using your original file render the 6 second video again but disable ¡¥Smart Render¡¦
From the window where you name the file press ¡¥Options¡¦¡Xuncheck ¡¥Smart Render¡¦"

Gave that a go but no change!

Thanks though.