AVCHD Editing The Cineform Neo HDV Way

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:47 am

So you bought your first AVCHD camcorder and you're trying to figure out how to edit AVCHD.

Sony, Corel (formerly Ulead), Pinnacle, Nero all advertise relatively low-cost NLEs that they claim will allow you to get the job done.

Well, if your experience has been like mine, you are probably pretty frustrated by now.

AVCHD (and HDV) are known as a "long GOP (Group of Pictures)" formats.

On the other hand, DV .avi files are I-Frame format files.

I-Frame files are much easier to edit than long GOP files.

Long GOP formats are made up of frames that are not independent of each other and they require a lot of computer processor power to edit.

On my AMD Athlon 64 2.4 Ghz laptop, I can edit DV .avi files with ease.

But load my editor with HDV or AVCHD files and -- darn -- the computer not only gets bogged down, it turns out that the software that claims to be capable of natively editing long GOP with so-called "smart" or "minimal" rendering fails to work as expected.

With Corel and Magix software (based on MainConcept technology), for example, if you insert titles and then render your high or standard definition MPEG-2 files out to a single file on your hard disk, and then you playback the file, you'll see problems with the result: with Magix there's a glitch before titles and with Corel there's a glitch after titles.

It makes truly professional output impossible, in my view.

So I say why wait for a fix?

They've had years to get this working and they haven't delivered.

That's where Cineform -- http://www.cineform.com -- comes to the rescue.

Cineform sells a product for $250 that you can download and install.

I have three software video editors.

1. Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11;
2. Corel (Ulead) VideoStudio 11 Plus;
3. Corel (Ulead) MediaStudio Pro 8.

After installing Cineform's "Neo HDV," I observe a shiny new codec option in each of the previously listed editors.

The bad news:

Transcoding long GOP formats to more edit-friendly I-Frame formats takes a long time and the transcoded files require a lot of hard disk space.

The good news:

Cineform is still worth it.

When you import the Cineform .avi files into the video editor of your choice, you'll notice it's about as easy to edit these files as DV .avi files.

Even my relatively slow laptop computer can edit the high definition Cineform .avis with ease and the quality of the previewing is fantastic.

Moreover, you can insert titles, transitions, filters and render out your timeline to a single high definition DVD file and then watch it playback FLAWLESSLY and the quality is great.

Cineform's download includes a utility called "HDLink" that I discovered I did not need.

"HDLink" is supposed to transcode long GOP formats to the more edit-friendly Cineform .AVI (I-Frame) format and you'll read on Cineform's Web site that you might need to buy a third-party software AVCHD player to be able to convert AVCHD files to Cineform .avi files.

Well, I discovered that I didn't need to use "HDLink" for that purpose.

As I mentioned, I have Corel (Ulead) VideoStudio 11 Plus, which features a built-in AVCHD decoder.

As I mentioned, I also have Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11, which features a built-in AVCHD decoder.

So within each of those editors, you can simply drop an AVCHD file into the timeline and then render it out to a file on your hard disk using the Cineform encoder.

Since MediaStudio Pro 8 doesn't feature an AVCHD decoder, you can't insert an AVCHD file into the MediaStudio Pro 8 timeline.

However, you can import the Cineform .avi files into MediaStudio Pro 8.

So if you have Corel VideoStudio 11 Plus installed on your computer, you can use it to convert AVCHD files to Cineform .avi files.

Then you can bring the Cineform .avi files into your Corel (Ulead) MediaStudio Pro 8 timeline and edit in high definition with the greatest of ease.

The quality is terrific.

No long GOP MPEG-2 smart render bugs to worry about anymore.

Of course, the Cineform .avi files can also be created from HDV MPEG-2 files as well.

I think Cineform Neo HDV is well worth the money.

I formerly was a strong advocate for native long GOP editing.

But I have been unable to find a single non-linear video editor on the PC platform that works as advertised where long GOP native editing is concerned.

Perhaps Apple's Final Cut Pro works well; I don't know because I've never personally done any testing on the Macintosh platform.

Now I'm a convert.

Cineform .avi editing is the way to go for those of us on the PC platform who work with low-cost non-linear video editors.

The Cineform .avi files should also be easy to create from the source files of 720p camcorders such as the Sanyo HD2, the new Samsung SC-HMX10, the Aiptek Go-HD, and the Canon TX1.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:59 am

One caution:

While I can get the Cineform .avi files to work in the Corel (Ulead) programs, I am having trouble getting the Cineform .avi files to work properly in Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11.

But I'm working on that, too.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:31 am

Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 is apparently incompatible with the Cineform .avis.

Beware.

But the Cineform .avis work great in the Corel (Ulead) VideoStudio 11 Plus and the Corel (Ulead) MediaStudio Pro 8 applications.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

neonbob · Post by **neonbob** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:54 am

Jerry Jones wrote:
But the Cineform .avis work great in the Corel (Ulead) VideoStudio 11 Plus and the Corel (Ulead) MediaStudio Pro 8 applications.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Nice to know Jerry.

It should also be pointed out that if cineform works with MSP, then you SHOULD be able to edit 24p from the Canon HV20 in MSP as well (cineform can remove the pull down).

GeorgeW · Post by **GeorgeW** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:29 pm

This has been the approach by other NLE's for a long time now -- using an HDI (HD Intermediate).

Ulead took the PROXY approach, or edit natively (vs. the HDI that comes with some packages).

Few questions:

1) With the HDI:
1a -TIME to convert to HDI
1b -more disc space used
1c -TIME to render OUT
As I understand the original issue, if you turn off Smart Rendering, the issue with "Titles" goes away (seems like you can bypass 1a and 1b)

2) How does the PROXY approach compare to the HDI approach

3) Has anyone tried using a PROXY file (adding a Title, and rendering to see if there's a "glitch" at the Title) -- render BOTH Smart Render and Non Smart Render

Regards,
George

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:50 pm

I've found when using the cineformhd codec that in VS I'll have uncheck "Use non-square pixel rendering" to produce a 16x9 video. This is to produce any type of file, hd-mpeg2/hd-divx/hd-wmv.
I have 3 choices when using the cineform codec, the highest quality setting works out to be 1 gig per minute of hd video.
I guess the codec is using square pixels.

Many times, depending on the project this is overkill, I'll turn smart-rendering off and the video is still very acceptable (except for avchd conversions). That codec is a bear but there are other programs that will convert the avchd direct to hd-mpeg2 properly. Although I'm starting to believe that maybe staying in the avchd format from start to finish (on a fast computer) may be the logical choice for the average consumer.

Hd-mpeg2 starting out at 25MBS can be re-rendered again, the bit-rate is so high the slight loss is very acceptable.

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:37 pm

Etech,

Yes, one must uncheck the "use non-square pixel rendering" in VideoStudio 11 Plus when doing the AVCHD or HDV conversions to Cineform .AVIs because those are square-pixel formats.

So -- to get proper aspect ratio -- one should uncheck that box.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

etech6355 wrote:I've found when using the cineformhd codec that in VS I'll have uncheck "Use non-square pixel rendering" to produce a 16x9 video.

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:00 pm

Etech,

I respectfully disagree.

I would make the following three points:

1. The AVCHD to HD MPEG-2 conversions in Corel VideoStudio 11 Plus, in my opinion, are being done properly.

I'm now convinced of that.

I do not believe that the mere lack of field information being reported in Corel VideoStudio 11 Plus is proof that Corel VideoStudio 11 Plus is "reading AVCHD as frame-based." This only means that Corel software can't detect field information for transport stream files; but they are being read correctly.

Why?

I rendered the AVCHD transport stream files in the Corel VideoStudio 11 Plus timeline to be HD MPEG-2 files.

I then used the Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 software to capture AVCHD files and I then used Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 software to render the AVCHD files to be HD MPEG-2 files with the same properties as those created by Corel VideoStudio 11 Plus.

I then visually compared the results for subjects in motion and the results were identical.

I then did further testing with the Cineform .AVIs.

The Cineform .AVI codec produces frame-based .AVI files no matter how one adjusts the field order output settings.

So this is a frame-based codec no matter what; the user has no say.

One can determine this is true by using Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 to render an AVCHD file -- captured by Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 -- to Cineform .AVI format.

The resulting .AVI is always frame-based.

One can do the same test in Corel VideoStudio 11 Plus.

AVCHD to Cineform .AVI conversions always result in frame-based .AVI files no matter which field order output setting one chooses.

And they look great; they retain incredible quality.

And they are amazingly easy to edit because they don't require the computer power that is required by long GOP formats.

2. One must have an extremely fast computer -- and I mean the fastest computer available on the market -- to edit raw AVCHD long GOP files with any degree of responsive behavior in the timeline of either Corel VideoStudio 11 Plus or Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11. On my relatively slow computer, both programs are unbearably slow when editing raw AVCHD streams on the timeline. I drag a clip to the timeline and I have to wait five seconds before I can do anything. It's awful. So the average user, in my opinion, is getting short-changed by the PC platform non-linear video editing software developers. Meanwhile, those on the Apple platform have enjoyed free, built-in support for high quality long-GOP-to-edit-friendly-intermediate-files using the Apple Intermediate Codec, which is included at no extra charge in the iMovie HD and Final Cut Express HD products. Apple has wisely reserved native long GOP editing for the professional Final Cut Studio product, which would naturally be used by professionals who are able to afford extremely fast systems. But even with Final Cut Studio, Apple has created its own extremely high quality intermediate codec called ProRes 422.

3. I am convinced higher quality results from transcoding AVCHD and HDV to specially-designed, high quality intermediate I-Frame files for editing. Transcoding long GOP formats to other long GOP formats is an exercise in quality degradation, in my opinion. Why? Because you're taking a highly-compressed format and you're re-encoding it with a codec that -- again -- applies high compression. With the Cineform .AVI files, titles and transitions and filter-applied video renders so beautifully it has to be seen to be appreciated.

For low cost PC editing, intermediates are great; but I believe Corel and Pinnacle and Adobe and Sony should have included a Cineform-style intermediate codec in their products for consumers as Apple has done. As it is now, the PC platform video editing software developers have withheld this intermediate codec support -- in my opinion -- to cut their costs. It does not serve consumers well.

Regards,

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

etech6355 wrote:Although I'm starting to believe that maybe staying in the avchd format from start to finish (on a fast computer) may be the logical choice for the average consumer. Hd-mpeg2 starting out at 25MBS can be re-rendered again, the bit-rate is so high the slight loss is very acceptable.

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:08 pm

1. The proxy approach deserves some testing, George, that's an excellent point. Perhaps it can "rescue" the failed long GOP smart renders we've been observing.

2. If you turn smart render "off," then you will re-encode every frame of long GOP video with yet another round of long GOP compression. If you were to encode to far less compressed I-frame intermediate formats, you would get more responsive behavior in the timeline and -- in my view -- you would spare each frame from the amount of quality loss that otherwise would occur if you were to recompress with long GOP compression.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

GeorgeW wrote:As I understand the original issue, if you turn off Smart Rendering, the issue with "Titles" goes away (seems like you can bypass 1a and 1b) 2) How does the PROXY approach compare to the HDI approach 3) Has anyone tried using a PROXY file (adding a Title, and rendering to see if there's a "glitch" at the Title) -- render BOTH Smart Render and Non Smart Render Regards, George

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:03 pm

Some more thoughts.

The consumer camcorder market is changing dramatically.

The MiniDV format -- long the friend of the standard definition video editor with its edit-friendly, I-FRAME DV .AVI format -- is being replaced by camcorders that record to a variety of long GOP formats.

1. Sanyo HD2: Records to long GOP MPEG-4;
2. Aiptek Go-HD: Records to long GOP H.264 MPEG-4;
3. Standard definition DVD camcorders are numerous from all manufacturers and they record to long GOP MPEG-2;
4. High definition HDV (long GOP MPEG-2), high definition AVCHD (long GOP H.264/MPEG-4 variant), JVC's proprietary HD MPEG-2 hard disk Everio camcorders complicate the mix.

With intermediate codecs such as Cineform Neo HDV, you can take video from multiple types of camcorders and then conform their very distinct and different file properties to a single I-FRAME format whose properties never change.

Corel (formerly Ulead) came up with this new feature called "MPEG Optimizer" in hopes of overcoming the confusion over the project settings that one must choose when adjusting project settings and rendering out a mixed timeline; but -- in my view -- this isn't that great of an idea.

Why?

Because if you attempt to edit a variety of mixed format, long GOP files in a single timeline -- such as HD 720p MPEG-4 and HD 1080i MPEG-2 -- you will invariably run into the problem of system responsiveness.

By conforming all mixed format clips to a single, edit-friendly, DV-like format, you can edit with terrific ease in the timeline.

Moreover, the same visual cues that the editor has available in Corel MediaStudio Pro 8 -- such as those great timeline stripes that tell you which audio or video timeline segments require rendering... it all works with the Cineform .AVI files as it does with DV .avi files.

When one attempts to edit mixed long GOP formats in the MediaStudio Pro 8 timeline, however, the benefit of those visual cues is lost along with the ease of editing associated with I-FRAME format source files.

Long GOP editing is just an incredibly difficult thing to do because the engineers who designed long GOP codecs probably were not thinking about editors.

They were thinking about distribution.

With the Cineform .AVI files, you can render out to various formats such as HD MPEG-2 and WMV HD.

Keeping a "master" Cineform .AVI file is a lot like keeping a "master" DV .avi file.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:49 pm

Apparently, the Cineform .AVI files are actually wavelet files:

Q: What is the underlying compression technology used by CineForm Intermediate?

A: The CineForm Intermediate codec is based on a temporal Wavelet structure designed by CineForm for the rigorous visual quality demands required in a multi-generation post-production workflow. We also designed it for very efficient CPU implementation on PC architectures. The latter is why we have such very high performance - multiple real-time streams - while editing.

The word "temporal" means there is compression among successive frames, but MUCH more efficient than MPEG's notorious interframe coding based on motion estimation (we don't use motion estimation). Our temporal coding is so efficient that our codec is "symmetric", meaning that encoding and decoding take virtually the same amount of time. It's also why our render times are so fast.

Another interesting fact is that CineForm Intermediate is "blockless". What this means is that the image is compressed in one large "chunk". Although its blockless implementation is more complex, the simple reason we do this is for improved image quality. As most are aware, MPEG (and related algorithms) divide the image into small 8x8 block sizes, each of which is compressed individually and then reassembled upon decoding. In complex image sequences coded with MPEG you often end up with block noise and edge ringing contributed to by the small block sizes. This never happens with blockless Wavelet transforms.

Finally, our files are variable bit rate files for improved visual quality, not fixed bitrate. HDV is necessarily a fixed bitrate system because of the constant bitrate demands of tape recording. CineForm Intermediate compression allow bitrates to naturally rise in response to visually demanding scenes and fall during less demanding scenes.

Link: http://www.cineform.com/products/FAQ.htm#ProspectHD12

And this thread...

http://dvinfo.net/conf/archive/index.php/t-53871.html

Cineform's own David Newman writes...

CineForm is effectively an I-frame wavelet codec. It is a lot lighter compressed than either HDV or DVCPRO-HD, as a result it is much higher quality for post production workflows. See info on quality here : http://www.cineform.com/technology/quality.htm

Interesting stuff.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:39 pm

For low cost PC editing, intermediates are great; but I believe Corel and Pinnacle and Adobe and Sony should have included a Cineform-style intermediate codec in their products for consumers as Apple has done. As it is now, the PC platform video editing software developers have withheld this intermediate codec support -- in my opinion -- to cut their costs. It does not serve consumers well.

Jerry, I have to come back and read everything you posted. Alot of information there.
You mentioned Sony (I take it Vegas?). Vegas Movie Studio7/8 Platinum & Full Vegas both provide the Cineformhd codec to render to, with selectable quailty settings (going into options). If you read the Vegas tutorials they recommend using the cineform codec for editing the hd-mpeg2 video. So you can use the Cineformhd codec while in Vegas. Accessing the Codec outside of Vegas for encoding will put a watermark in the video. Only Vegas has the rights to use the codec for encoding. You can use the cineform files to read & encode to other formats using VS or MF and other programs such as inserting a cineformhd file created in Vegas, then inserting into these other programs & exporting to hd-divx/hd-wmv.

It's good to hear you are having positve results with converting avchd to other formats.

With VS11+ it's confusing, some of my hd-mpeg2 TS files are read and display fielding information and some do not display information. Small files aren't displaying correctly & larger files are (usually).
I will have to come back & read everything you posted, at this time I'm to busy. (Work is a good thing)

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:44 pm

I'm sold on intermediate Cineform files for editing.

My laptop computer can cut through those high definition files like they were butter!

No more dreadfully sluggish performance and excellent quality.

Well worth the money.

That's very interesting information you provided about the Sony products.

So both Sony and Apple have treated their customers with a very valuable internal feature, in my view.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:48 am

Jerry,
I don't know if this has been mentioned before but there is an edit button at the top right of your post to save you having to reply to your own submissions. It is also wasteful of space to keep using double spacing on a web forum.

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:58 am

Steve,

There are many unbelievably appalling behaviors that you exhibit on this Web board, but I don't usually call you on them.

But I would ask that if you have a personal beef with me, then let's take it off of the forum.

Frankly, I would welcome that because I believe you could benefit from a few frank observations that I've made about your administration behaviors.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net