Interlacing / Deinterlacing problem #3

superdave · Post by **superdave** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:45 am

Sorry for this 3rd attempt for posting up this reply... my early 2 replies had hung up the post because I think I used the URL code wanting to create a hyperlink to a video sample, but I think the system was trying to load the file into the post itself. If the forum administrator could somehow delete my earlier 2 posts, that would be greatly appreciated.

Someone did reply me earlier on some suggestions on the ghosting problem I'm having with VS11+ and here's my response which i tried to post up in my 1st post:

Thanks for your reply... I've tried matching the project properties in VS11+ to the properties of the source video and the results are still the same... I still get a ghosting problem, both in a frame-based output video and on a burnt dvd playing back on TV.

You can download a sample of the orginal source video from my sony DCR-SR200 HDD cam at http://www.davidngiam.com/temp/sonysample.zip (6mb)

The porpeties of this file is File Format : NTSC DVD
Video Type : MPEG-2 Video, Upper Field First
Attributes : 24bits, 720 x480, 16:9
Data rate : Variable bit rate (Max. 9100kbps)
Audio type : Dolby Digital Audio
Attributes: 48000 Hz, 5.1 Channels
Layer : None
Bit Rate : 448kbps

Playback of this file through the Sony's Picture Motion Browser does not show any ghosting, and neither is there any ghosting from the DVD produced by Sony's software.

I have also tried on Ulead Mediastudio 8's video editor as well, and if I tick the auto-deinterlace checkbox when producing any frame-based video file, the output video does not show any ghosting... so I can only assume VS11+ does not have this option for auto-deinterlacing or at least I can't find any option that allows that (actually, I also read a review here http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,2143677,00.asp that had the same problem when outputting frame-based video)

Perhaps somone can try out the sample I posted and see if you can get a non-ghosting output video from VS11+ from either a frame-based video file or a dvd for TV playback. Currently, the only solution to this problem is editing in Mediastudio 8, or maybe some other video editing program which I have yet to try. But I have been really comfortable using VS in the past, so as far as possible, I don't wish to move away from it.

Thanks!

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:33 pm

Hi

I have looked at your video and indeed there is some ghosting.
I have rendered the file to Frame Based and Lower Field first, with no improvement. (VS 11 trial)

I have tried playback on several of my players with the same results.

I think the ghosting is embedded/part of the video at source and not an interlace issue. Unless its been re-coded.

The date/name of the file indicates it was created a few days ago. Was this the camera recording date or has the original been re-coded, or just renamed??

As you use HDD camera I assume you copied and pasted the Mpeg to your computer.
How did you get the video onto your pc?

If you had used a capture method then the properties would have to be selected by the user which can cause problems. It is difficult to know which field order to use.

PS:- I used the ¡¥make movie manager¡¦ ¡¥Add¡¦ function to create a template of your video. I then edited the template changing the field order to frame based.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:45 pm

Hi Dave

Update
Now I'am confused, I have just tried using Nero Show Time and can play without the ghosting???????????????????

superdave · Post by **superdave** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:28 am

Hi Trevor,

Thanks for helping me to figure this out... The video file was indeed shot only a few days ago and it has not be re-encoded. To copy from the Cam is pretty easy. Once you plug in the cam via USB, it appears as an external drive and you can can just copy the file over. You can use Sony's utility to copy over th file, but it just copies over the file to your local hard disk without modifying the file. I experimented with both file transfer methods and the ghosting still appears on both.

After much experimenting and research on the internet, I think i have figured out the problem or issues...

Firstly, the real issue I was having was not interlacing, but rather ghosting. Although, ghosting is somewhat a result of interlacing, ghosting can still occur after a video has been deinterlaced... it really depends on which method of deinterlacing is used. I believe the method used in VS11+ is a 'blend' deinterlace (see http://www.100fps.com/ for a better description of this), so while the output video has been deinterlaced... ghosting will permanantly remain.

I initially had 2 problems regarding ghosting... Ghosting occuring in a frame based video, and ghosting in a DVD i created. I will discuss the 'solution' i had for both...

GHOSTING IN FRAME-BASED VIDEO

As mentioned above, I believe VS11+ employs a very basic form of 'blend' deinterlacing method, which is really not ideal for fast action video movements...

My recomendation is to match the project settings to the video format of the source file (in my case, its MPEG-2 Video, Upper Field First). After which, output the video in the same settings as the source / project. This way the rendering time is kept to a minimum (and I believe there is no re-encoding on non-edited segments, so no loss of quality). With that video, the only method to properly de-interlace is to use another software to do it. I've used Ulead's Mediastudio Pro 8 to deinterlace... the resulting video has no more ghosting. I've tried some other 3rd party software and those work as well.

GHOSTING IN DVD

DVD players are suppose to handle interlaced videos and display them properly without ghosting. However, I mentioned earlier that ghosting can still be seen in the DVD produced by VS11+.

I've tried it again, this time ensuring that the settings are kept at the same field type as the source (in my case Upper Field First) all the way, and the resulting DVD shows no more ghosting on my TV.

I believe the problem I had earlier was because VS11+ default project setting for NTSC DVD was based on 'Lower Field First'. Since my Sony cam captures video in Upper Field First, this field mismatch (I believe) results in ghosting. So this is something you want to watch out for....

I hope my experience helps others out there... Cheers!

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 11:19 am

Hi

Thanks for the info on ghosting.

If you haven¡¦t already done this:-
To make VS change the project settings to match the first video file.

File-Preferences-Tick-Show messages when inserting first video into Timeline.

This will prompt you to change the project properties, you can select details to view the properties.

Only works for the first clip.
Only works for clips that are project property compatible, for want of a better discription, (WMV for instance does not work.)

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:04 pm

Yes, you've discovered one of the main rules of video editing - the project properties must match the clip properties.

superdave · Post by **superdave** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:45 pm

hi trevor,

thanks for the tip. I did see it the first time around when you posted it on my first thread. That actually helped me discover what the problem was...

just to add, i still get some ghosting on sections of the video where i had reduced the speed (slow motion)... but i suspect thats just the nature of the beast since the interlace video is now stretched.

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:47 pm

Do you see that in the preview window or on the finished product? I've noticed that my slo-mo doesn't look that good in preview but looks great on the DVD.