The HV20 is not listed in the compatability chart, but it looks like it hasn't been updated in quite a while.
Before I upgrade to MSP v8, will it work completely with the HV20? Will it work with the HV20 24p mode, or just normal 1080i HDV?
Any 'gotchas' I should know about?
MSP v7 has worked well for me, but now need HDV support. Thanks for your help,
John F
MSP v.8 with Canon HV20?
The HV10 worked fine for me, w/ general HDV in MSPro8 caveats, so hopefully the HV20 capture/control should as well given it's pretty much the same camera guts.
I have not of course done anything w/ 24p since that's not supported on HV10.
The HDV caveats in MSpro8 are:
- capture automatically forces on-the-fly conversion of M2T transport to MPG2 HDV stream (mspro only edits MPG2 not M2T format)
- no timestamp (eg scene cut) metadata, so no auto-split-by-scene
(if you want this, need to split by image content, or capture via HDVsplit instead to sep M2T files- which mspro8 needs to convert to MPG2)
This means no info on time-of-day when scene/clip was shot either unlike DV; and if you record edited video back to tape, the date/shot metadata is missing.
- no batch capture (just ffwd/rew controls, and auto/no time limit); no "scan DV tape" etc either
MSpro does have project/video creation settings/framerates for 24p(film) and 25p listed (but not in the default HDV templates, create your own), so it might work... but I don't think MSPro8 has any real pulldown support, so you'd have to maybe process w/ something else to get proper 24p MPG before editing.
For more tips/info, check out eg dvinfo.net HV10/20 forums.
PS My PC is a P4-HT 2.8Ghz, I'd say that was bare minimum, prob need more than 1GB RAM and faster CPU to really edit smoothly. It's very choppy on my system. I am shopping/waiting for a cheaper Core2Duo replacement box, but am also bummed that MSPro8 / mpeg.now is not Core2Duo optimized like VS11+ is
Congrats on the HV20 purchase!
I am very happy w/ my HV10 and the HD picture quality is just breathtaking! No comparison to SD. Enjoy!
In the meantime, if you get stuck, you can always use the "DV lock" firewire output mode on the camera to capture/edit DV (16:9 SD) from the HDV recordings, eg especially if you're only making SD DVDs.
Some people have stated that picture/color quality appears better if you capture/edit in HDV and convert in the editor to SD DVD-NTSC MPG2, rather than the camera, so up to you; camera-downconverted-DV may just be easier to work with on your PC & your normal MSPro workflow.
I've also noted that the DV scene-cut timing is off by a couple frames when the camera downconverts it, so be aware.
I have not of course done anything w/ 24p since that's not supported on HV10.
The HDV caveats in MSpro8 are:
- capture automatically forces on-the-fly conversion of M2T transport to MPG2 HDV stream (mspro only edits MPG2 not M2T format)
- no timestamp (eg scene cut) metadata, so no auto-split-by-scene
(if you want this, need to split by image content, or capture via HDVsplit instead to sep M2T files- which mspro8 needs to convert to MPG2)
This means no info on time-of-day when scene/clip was shot either unlike DV; and if you record edited video back to tape, the date/shot metadata is missing.
- no batch capture (just ffwd/rew controls, and auto/no time limit); no "scan DV tape" etc either
MSpro does have project/video creation settings/framerates for 24p(film) and 25p listed (but not in the default HDV templates, create your own), so it might work... but I don't think MSPro8 has any real pulldown support, so you'd have to maybe process w/ something else to get proper 24p MPG before editing.
For more tips/info, check out eg dvinfo.net HV10/20 forums.
PS My PC is a P4-HT 2.8Ghz, I'd say that was bare minimum, prob need more than 1GB RAM and faster CPU to really edit smoothly. It's very choppy on my system. I am shopping/waiting for a cheaper Core2Duo replacement box, but am also bummed that MSPro8 / mpeg.now is not Core2Duo optimized like VS11+ is
Congrats on the HV20 purchase!
I am very happy w/ my HV10 and the HD picture quality is just breathtaking! No comparison to SD. Enjoy!
In the meantime, if you get stuck, you can always use the "DV lock" firewire output mode on the camera to capture/edit DV (16:9 SD) from the HDV recordings, eg especially if you're only making SD DVDs.
Some people have stated that picture/color quality appears better if you capture/edit in HDV and convert in the editor to SD DVD-NTSC MPG2, rather than the camera, so up to you; camera-downconverted-DV may just be easier to work with on your PC & your normal MSPro workflow.
I've also noted that the DV scene-cut timing is off by a couple frames when the camera downconverts it, so be aware.
-
barshnik
Thanks for the help. I'd suspected that their would be capture issues,and changes to workflow, but now that you describe it, it seems even worse than I expected. My current PC definately won't cut it.
My plan was to both burn a SD DVD and record back to tape the finished product, so that sounds OK.
Does the proxy feature described for lesser powered PC work at all for, say, 40 minute productions (maybe edited down from 2 hrs of tape)? I'm not concerned about the loss of metadata, except as it effects scene capture ability. Thanks,
John F
My plan was to both burn a SD DVD and record back to tape the finished product, so that sounds OK.
Does the proxy feature described for lesser powered PC work at all for, say, 40 minute productions (maybe edited down from 2 hrs of tape)? I'm not concerned about the loss of metadata, except as it effects scene capture ability. Thanks,
John F
I haven't tried the proxy much, it does convert in the background, but it is a bit slow. I usually get tired and cancel itbarshnik wrote:Thanks for the help. I'd suspected that their would be capture issues,and changes to workflow, but now that you describe it, it seems even worse than I expected. My current PC definately won't cut it.
My plan was to both burn a SD DVD and record back to tape the finished product, so that sounds OK.
Does the proxy feature described for lesser powered PC work at all for, say, 40 minute productions (maybe edited down from 2 hrs of tape)? I'm not concerned about the loss of metadata, except as it effects scene capture ability. Thanks,
John F
but it might be a lifesaver for your lower-powered PC (what specs?) You might have problems on capture, though, since there's a bit of overhead for displaying and converting M2T to MPG2. My capture does not drop any frames, but the display can be very choppy. Make sure you have no extra processes/CPU&mem drains running during capture, esp antivirus etc.
You might try the msp8 demo version to see how it works. (recommend backup in case it conflicts w/ your msp7 install; definitely be CAREFUL opening/saving any of your dvp project files! msp8 versions are unreadable by msp7!)
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barshnik
Yes, I should try demo MSPv8 - I'll create a new XP login just for this so I (hopefully) don't hose the v7 that actually works.
This will have to wait a while, though, as wife & I are leaving tomorrow for vacation - 2 weeks in Alaska (Anchorage, surrounding mountain towns, and Kodiac Island).
Another dilema - I'm perfectly comfortable shooting in pure manual mode on my trusty Sony TRV-900, but I've only had the HV20 for a couple days and don't want to mess up this vacation video too badly, so am actually considering shooting in 'auto' mode since I've had no practice time to see how different non-auto settings may behave. Maybe I'll shoot some duplicate scenes in auto and then manual, and sort it out after I get an HDV editor working...
Thanks,
John F
This will have to wait a while, though, as wife & I are leaving tomorrow for vacation - 2 weeks in Alaska (Anchorage, surrounding mountain towns, and Kodiac Island).
Another dilema - I'm perfectly comfortable shooting in pure manual mode on my trusty Sony TRV-900, but I've only had the HV20 for a couple days and don't want to mess up this vacation video too badly, so am actually considering shooting in 'auto' mode since I've had no practice time to see how different non-auto settings may behave. Maybe I'll shoot some duplicate scenes in auto and then manual, and sort it out after I get an HDV editor working...
Thanks,
John F
New HDV camcorder- a great excuse to re-do all your vacations in HD
Alaska should be great, and the Canon will capture it well.
The Canons do very well in full auto mode in bright light, you should be OK-
one caveat is it tends to overexpose a bit; you can switch to manual in "P" mode (semi-auto), and at least have the zebra active to see hotspots... it will otherwise be basically auto otherwise, so you won't mess anything up, but you get manual control incl the zebra if you want it.
In bright sun w/ contrasts, to fight the overexposure, I tend to set it to Av (aperture priority mode), and close down the aperture some. This is more flexible than exposure control since that's absolute/fixed exposure, and if the light changes/pan around it will be wrong.
You can also set the whitebalance which helps as well, to eg sunlight/shade/cloudy etc. in manual mode.
One experience I've learned from vacation videos, is to trust the HD resolution/clarity works- it will pick up the smallest details pretty well, even if you can't see them on the LCD/viewfinder, so resist temptation to zoom in too much (my bad habit) to see detail. The digital zoom quality is very good, and the OIS as well, so if you need to get something in zoom it should be OK, just don't feel you have to zoom to get detail anymore- trust the HD.
HD also works best & most beautifully for long, lingering shots... the Canons don't seem to show too much problems w/ panning/camera motion, and the OIS is good, but your eye will want to drink in the eye candy so avoid the quick zooming/panning shots
The HV10/20 don't have too much wide angle though, despite widescreen, so for something big like alaska landscape you might need to do a lot of slow pans to get everything in. just fyi. You can get wide-angle adapter lenses but there is some resolution loss/vignetting issues sometimes (and blocking issues for the IF sensor/flash etc since it's bigger in front of the camera.)
Feel free to use the simultaneous still-shot button lots while recording, if you have a big miniSD card; it takes very good 2mp stills while recording (esp in bright light), so that way you won't miss any video but can still grab still shots of the highlights (like iceberg falling, bear posing, etc.) The regular still mode is a bit more flexible, but it's slower like any still cam - but at least now you get a 10x zoom
This is a bit off-topic now so I suggest you check out the Canon HV10/20 forums at dvinfo.net, great expert help there, some have done just what you did and can advise.
Have a great trip & good filming!
PS in case later you find your PC isn't fast enough for MSPro8 HDV capture, try HDVsplit- the latest patched version supports the HV10 now (.77?), and it WILL do scene splits (to sep files if you want), and seems much lighter-impact on the PC, so this might solve both your problems. MSPro will still need to convert the m2t files to mpg2, so a 2nd step, but that's somewhat of a batch/offline job so could be workable.
Alaska should be great, and the Canon will capture it well.
The Canons do very well in full auto mode in bright light, you should be OK-
one caveat is it tends to overexpose a bit; you can switch to manual in "P" mode (semi-auto), and at least have the zebra active to see hotspots... it will otherwise be basically auto otherwise, so you won't mess anything up, but you get manual control incl the zebra if you want it.
In bright sun w/ contrasts, to fight the overexposure, I tend to set it to Av (aperture priority mode), and close down the aperture some. This is more flexible than exposure control since that's absolute/fixed exposure, and if the light changes/pan around it will be wrong.
You can also set the whitebalance which helps as well, to eg sunlight/shade/cloudy etc. in manual mode.
One experience I've learned from vacation videos, is to trust the HD resolution/clarity works- it will pick up the smallest details pretty well, even if you can't see them on the LCD/viewfinder, so resist temptation to zoom in too much (my bad habit) to see detail. The digital zoom quality is very good, and the OIS as well, so if you need to get something in zoom it should be OK, just don't feel you have to zoom to get detail anymore- trust the HD.
HD also works best & most beautifully for long, lingering shots... the Canons don't seem to show too much problems w/ panning/camera motion, and the OIS is good, but your eye will want to drink in the eye candy so avoid the quick zooming/panning shots
The HV10/20 don't have too much wide angle though, despite widescreen, so for something big like alaska landscape you might need to do a lot of slow pans to get everything in. just fyi. You can get wide-angle adapter lenses but there is some resolution loss/vignetting issues sometimes (and blocking issues for the IF sensor/flash etc since it's bigger in front of the camera.)
Feel free to use the simultaneous still-shot button lots while recording, if you have a big miniSD card; it takes very good 2mp stills while recording (esp in bright light), so that way you won't miss any video but can still grab still shots of the highlights (like iceberg falling, bear posing, etc.) The regular still mode is a bit more flexible, but it's slower like any still cam - but at least now you get a 10x zoom
This is a bit off-topic now
so I suggest you check out the Canon HV10/20 forums at dvinfo.net, great expert help there, some have done just what you did and can advise.Have a great trip & good filming!
PS in case later you find your PC isn't fast enough for MSPro8 HDV capture, try HDVsplit- the latest patched version supports the HV10 now (.77?), and it WILL do scene splits (to sep files if you want), and seems much lighter-impact on the PC, so this might solve both your problems. MSPro will still need to convert the m2t files to mpg2, so a 2nd step, but that's somewhat of a batch/offline job so could be workable.
-
barshnik
Thanks for all of your tips. I infrequently pan, and (almost) never zoom. When editing, I use straight cuts or crossfades only (almost). I'll use mostly auto mode (I've read it is really quite good on the HV20), and use P with your suggestions as well.
I expect I'll be using the 'cloudy' WB a lot after looking at weather reports... Leaving tomorrow AM, again, thanks for your help.
John F
I expect I'll be using the 'cloudy' WB a lot after looking at weather reports... Leaving tomorrow AM, again, thanks for your help.
John F
The easiest way to handle the 24P is use Cineform HDlink for the capture. It will remove the pull down and leave you with pure 24P intermediate AVI files. Unfortunately MSP will not work with these files so you will need Sony Vegas7.cgould wrote: I have not of course done anything w/ 24p since that's not supported on HV10.
rwernyei wrote:Neonbob,
What are you talking about? AVI doesn't even relate to this HD conversation. You might want to be more informed before posting and try a little less putting down a Ulead product in a Ulead user forum. Go product place Vegas somewhere else.
Cineform HDlink converts M2T HD files to high quality (large) AVI intermediate files for easier editing. It also removes the pull down which MSP can not do.
If you look at one of the responding posts, they state that they are not informed with regards to the 24P from the HV20. I merely informed both the poster and the responder as to what I do with the 24P files.... It's not my fault that MSP can't handle them.
MSP does remove the pulldown that allows for native 24P editing, this was integrated in MSP7.3.
http://www.ulead.com/learning/msp/msp7_13_1.htm
As for it being able to work with Canon's 24F which is marketed as similar to 24P I do not know. Also, HD is different than SD. My best guess is that MSP would recognize and handle the 24F firewire transfer OK but custom project settings would be needed for creating 24F output.
As for Cineform converting the m2t files to intermediate AVI files for easier editing, this is similar to MSP's m2t to mpg conversion which is even easier thanks to smart rendering.
http://www.ulead.com/learning/msp/msp7_13_1.htm
As for it being able to work with Canon's 24F which is marketed as similar to 24P I do not know. Also, HD is different than SD. My best guess is that MSP would recognize and handle the 24F firewire transfer OK but custom project settings would be needed for creating 24F output.
As for Cineform converting the m2t files to intermediate AVI files for easier editing, this is similar to MSP's m2t to mpg conversion which is even easier thanks to smart rendering.
The problem with the Canon HV20 is that it lacks the ability to Flag the pull down so that most editors do not know to look for it in order to remove... which is why I suggested cineform in the first place... Msp does not remove the pull down from the HV20.... I've tried already.rwernyei wrote:MSP does remove the pulldown that allows for native 24P editing, this was integrated in MSP7.3.
http://www.ulead.com/learning/msp/msp7_13_1.htm
As for it being able to work with Canon's 24F which is marketed as similar to 24P I do not know. Also, HD is different than SD. My best guess is that MSP would recognize and handle the 24F firewire transfer OK but custom project settings would be needed for creating 24F output.
As for Cineform converting the m2t files to intermediate AVI files for easier editing, this is similar to MSP's m2t to mpg conversion which is even easier thanks to smart rendering.
Wrong. The camera applies the pulldown internally and records it to tape.
One review states this and the reviewer (Chris Hurd) is the head of popular website dvinfo.com
http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20overview.php
Oh, now you've tried it. Instead of suggesting what one might do, one would have come right out and post one's experience with the cam. I'm sorry but I don't believe you.
One review states this and the reviewer (Chris Hurd) is the head of popular website dvinfo.com
http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20overview.php
Oh, now you've tried it. Instead of suggesting what one might do, one would have come right out and post one's experience with the cam. I'm sorry but I don't believe you.
That's NOT what I said. You need to learn how to read. The canon HV20 lacks the ability to FLAG the pull down... I never said anythng about not recording the pull down to tape!!?? I know this because I OWN one. IF you don't believe then go to the AVS forum where there have been rather large discussions that include phone calls to Canon asking why the pull down is not flagged.rwernyei wrote:Wrong. The camera applies the pulldown internally and records it to tape.
One review states this and the reviewer (Chris Hurd) is the head of popular website dvinfo.com
http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/canon/hv20overview.php
Oh, now you've tried it. Instead of suggesting what one might do, one would have come right out and post one's experience with the cam. I'm sorry but I don't believe you.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthre ... 0+pulldown
And if you do not belive I own one then please send me your email add and I will send you pictures, reciepts, and anything else that you require for proof. In fact, here's my personal review of the HV20 on the Avid Liquid forum, when I first got it (My screen name on Avid is Blink3times):
http://www.avid.com/exchange/forums/thread/217619.aspx
(I edited my avid post and put your screen name at the bottom just in case you don't believe that the post is mine..... you seem to be a very untrusting sole)
And yes... I know about dvinfo.com.... I'm a member
It might be a good idea to think a little before calling someone a liar next time.... especially when I have no idea why you have done so!?
I'm sorry if my reply has offended you. My experience with forums is; if a poster has knowledge about the particular subject in post, he or she will share his/her experience. You did not. That is why I made my reply. Again. I am sorry if that offended you.
As for the flag issue, the avsforum is the first I have seen this issue addressed. Wouldn't this be a fault of the camera but thanks for the link. You mentioned it as Ulead's fault. If Canon addresses this with a camera firmware update, I have no doubt that Ulead would be able to handle the flag properly. So to place blame on the Ulead software might have been premature and wrong on your part.
Hope there's no bad feelings.
As for the flag issue, the avsforum is the first I have seen this issue addressed. Wouldn't this be a fault of the camera but thanks for the link. You mentioned it as Ulead's fault. If Canon addresses this with a camera firmware update, I have no doubt that Ulead would be able to handle the flag properly. So to place blame on the Ulead software might have been premature and wrong on your part.
Hope there's no bad feelings.