Capture queries - Video Studio 10

[duel]

Hi guys, I noticed under the capture options / properties there's an option to change the frame size which is set to 640 X 480 by default. Is this in pixels? If this is the case then isn't this and even the largest setting really small? Most monitors use at least 1024 X 768 right? So what if you put it on a 40" TV?!

Also I'm having some problems capturing in both AVI and MPEG format. Everything runs lovely and smooth in the preview window, but as soon as I hit capture, the footage is quite choppy and out of synch. This happens more so with MPEG so I was wondering if this is a codec problem but I'm totally clueless as to go about sorting this out.

I'm using the sound and video outputs from my analogue camera to plug into an ADS VideoXpress Capture box which output is USB2 going into my computer. I have USB2 installed. I have AVI Codec Pack 2.1 and DivX MPEG-5 Codec 3.2.200 Beta installed.

Here are the clip properties, I'm a noob with this stuff and thus completely clueless if anything obvious is amiss.








I also tried MPEG2 which didn't make any difference. Both MPEG formats seem to have bad quality aswell although I'm guessing this could be normal.

This is a serious problem for me because I can't even begin to make any videos! If anyone has any suggestions or feedback I'd really like to hear it. I'm more than happy to provide any other information you may need.

[heinz-oz]

You have your work cut out for you. There is a lot to learn yet because you seem to know nothing, no offence.

First of all, your TV standard determines the frame size needed for full frame DVD. It's 720 x 480 (NTSC) and 720 x 576 (PAL/SECAM). Every bit of TV/DVD you watch on your 40" LCD/PLASMA in standard definition is of that very same frame size. Even 16:9 widescreen can be the same frame size. If that now confuses you, don't worry, you are not alone.

AVI is as clear a description of your file format as "Bucket" is for liquids. It doesn't mean anything in itself. What's in it (AVI is a container format) counts. AVI can contain DivX, Xvid, mpeg4... you name it. When we are talking AVI in the context of digital video, more often than not we refer to DV-AVI. This format, while slightly compressed in the camcorder, is not "captured" in the true sense of the word, it's usually transferred into the PC via fire wire (IEEE 1394) connection. There is no capture settings to worry about except for the audio stream. Most commonly and least problematic is DV type 1 which has the audio stream embedded in the video. DV type 2 has a separate audio stream and some NLE editors require that to function. ULEAD programs are very happy with type 1.

Any compression used at capture requires a lot of PC resources unless the capture device has a hardware encoder. These tend to be a bit more expensive than the usually cheap USB adapter boxes, pretending to be capture devices, which require the PC to do the compression in real time. This is a very demanding resource intensive task.

In order to create a DVD you need mpeg2 compressed files which are best rendered as a last step after editing your DV-AVI clips. Some of the latest DVD players can also play DivX although these clips are not compliant to the DVD standard.

Mpeg1 is used for VCD and SVCD disks and can be burned to normal CD-R disks. Not every player out there can play SVCD but VCD is very poor quality.

DivX, Xvid, mpeg4 etc. are very high compression formats but offer very good quality at very small file sizes. These formats are used for web streaming of video content and are best viewed on a PC monitor. They are not the best format to edit though and cannot be used for DVD creation. In order to become DVD these files need to be converted to mpeg2 which requires a recoding and heavy quality loss is almost inevitable.

The smaller the file size for a given compression, the more original data has been discarded. Recoding that to a less compressed format requires reconstituting of image detail which is no longer there.

This is it in a very basic form. There is a lot more to it and many of my statements may be rejected by some people.

[duel]

Many thanks for taking the time to put together the above post. It has really given me a great insight to the basic workings of the entire process so I can better structure further questions.

No offense taken at all about not knowing anything because.. well I don't so it's great to have things spelt out like you've just done

Please bear with me with these next few questions, if you don't want to answer them all then I won't complain 'cos there are a bloody lot here!

Please allow me to answer your questions right here in your post. Might help to clarify things.

First of all, your TV standard determines the frame size needed for full frame DVD. It's 720 x 480 (NTSC) and 720 x 576 (PAL/SECAM). Every bit of TV/DVD you watch on your 40" LCD/PLASMA in standard definition is of that very same frame size. Even 16:9 widescreen can be the same frame size. If that now confuses you, don't worry, you are not alone.

Right, I'm from the UK and use PAL. From what you've just said here, is it safe to assume the best frame size to work in is 720 X 576 as I can make a DVD in addition to playing it in a media player such as WMP and releasing the video online? That is opposed to the other frame sizes including the default 640 X 480 (<why is this the default by the way?). Also just to make sure I have this right, if I successfully make a video using 720 X 576, I can watch it on any sized TV in my house including a 16:9 widescreen?

Ok, we are likely to create some further confusion here since it is never so clear cut. The best quality for DVD you do get from the full frame size but the DVD standard also allows for smaller frame sizes. I would not worry about that too much at this stage and stick to the full frame size.
You can play a DVD in the WIN MP provided you also have a software DVD player installed (WinDVD, PowerDVD etc.) also which provides the mpeg2 decoder. It is not provided by Microsoft as a standard.
To upload your video to the web you should render a version to a smaller frame size and use a different encoder like wmv, DivX etc. I would stay clear of mpeg4 at this point in time since the new MS OS, VISTA does not support it. DivX encoders are not free but wmv comes with Windows as far as I know. I don't use any of these since I don't publish my creations to the web and, hence, have only limited knowledge of them.

AVI is as clear a description of your file format as "Bucket" is for liquids. It doesn't mean anything in itself. What's in it (AVI is a container format) counts. AVI can contain DivX, Xvid, mpeg4... you name it.

Okay, so I now understand AVI is a container format for these other things like DivX, Xvid, mpeg4 which I assume to be codecs. Lets say I'm going to capture some footage (from my cheap capture box) and select AVI as the format in Video Studio. How can I tell which of these codec's the program is using? Are they the same that are installed on my computer outside the program? There don't seem to be any options or stuff to analyse this in Video Studio so I'm assuming this is the case. Could these be the reason I'm having slightly choppy video & out of synch audio, because I don't have the right ones installed? How does MPEG2 compare to AVI?

How does an A4 sheet of paper compare to a bucket? You'll have to learn to clarify what you are talking about when using the term "AVI". Mpeg2 is absolutely essential to create a DVD. AVI can be uncompressed video at over 60 GB per hour right down to very highly compressed video at maybe 800 MB or less per hour. These formats do not "compare". They are horses for courses. The reason for these highly compressed formats is the need to stream them from the web. People on dial up are struggling even with these but on broadband it becomes viable. Trying to stream full frame video in DVD compliant mpeg2 (yes, there are non-compliant mpeg2 files about also) from the web, even with a fast broadband connection is impossible because of the time it would take to transmit the data volume. In DVD compliant mpeg2 a 1 hour video could be over 4 GB in size, the same video, in comparable quality could be around 500MB when compressed to DivX. a lot easier to handle than 4 GB. Just don't try to edit that and make a DVD out it again. The missing 3.5 GB would have to be guessed by your converter program because the data is just not there.

When we are talking AVI in the context of digital video, more often than not we refer to DV-AVI. This format, while slightly compressed in the camcorder, is not "captured" in the true sense of the word, it's usually transferred into the PC via fire wire (IEEE 1394) connection. There is no capture settings to worry about except for the audio stream. Most commonly and least problematic is DV type 1 which has the audio stream embedded in the video. DV type 2 has a separate audio stream and some NLE editors require that to function. ULEAD programs are very happy with type 1.

Wicked, I'll keep that in mind if ever I stop spending all my money on beer and buy a proper camera.

That prompts me to ask. What camera do you use?

Any compression used at capture requires a lot of PC resources unless the capture device has a hardware encoder. These tend to be a bit more expensive than the usually cheap USB adapter boxes, pretending to be capture devices, which require the PC to do the compression in real time. This is a very demanding resource intensive task.

Oh dear, it looks likes I have a cheap usb adapter box. When I first read compression there, I got the image of programs like winzip making a file smaller. I'm guessing this is not exactly the case here. By compression, do you mean converting to AVI using the codec things (and it so happens to compress the video to a certain extent)? Lord help me with my superb use of terminology here.

Compression (video) is a bit more involved than zipping up a file. It could involve using a format that requires the use of an AVI container but is not limited to that. DV-AVI, the native format of MiniDV camcorders is compressed in a lossless fashion which means that it is compressed by discarding redundant image information but to the naked eye this is not aparent. Saving such a clip to DV-AVI format over and over again will, in time, result in a quality loss because every time you apply this compression more data gets discarded.

So if I'm using my crappy usb adapter box and my computer is struggling to process all this info, will this have an effect on the quality of the capture? Could this be why my video is sometimes a bit choppy and out of synch? Could I get away with using my existing box and tweaking settings elsewhere or would it be worth investing in a proper one? If it's better to get a proper hardware encoding device can you give me some examples of what I should aim for?

I guess this is a fair assumption. I don't know which formats your box allows you to use. The best would be if you could connect via firewire and transfer the data.

Sorry to bombard you with all these questions. If you don't want to answer them all I can understand it! Once again, thanks for your feedback, it's greatly appreciated.

[Ken Berry]

Just addressing the frame format size -- with no attempt to address your many other issues -- as Heinz-Oz has already said, essentially the PAL frame format size is 720 x 576 (plus 360 x 288 and a couple of other variants).

But the important thing you have to bear in mind is that these few frame format sizes are the PAL DVD standard. In other words, the frame format HAS to be one of the accepted sizes or else you simply cannot burn it to DVD as a playable video DVD -- full stop, no discussion shall be entered into...!

That being said, I don't know why your device uses 640 x 480 as its default, because that size is NOT part of the PAL (or NTSC) DVD standard, and thus anything you capture using that format size CANNOT be burned to DVD. It will have to be converted, and that means recoding which in turn means loss in quality, since you are dealing at this stage with the lossy mpeg-2 format which is also the required format for a video DVD.

So to avoid this messy and lossy conversion, you would be better reading the ADS manual and seeing how you can reset the format size before capturing, and set the other properties also to DVD-compatible mpeg-2 while you are at it. It will make things much simpler later on...

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi
Excellent reading.

Duel, one thing jumps out at me.

The default for Pal should be 720 x 576.

If you are seeing 640 x 480 then this is wrong for creating a dvd.
Creating a file for web viewing is another matter.

To check that VS is installed as Pal:-
If you go File-Project Properties
Select--Edit Format file type to ¡¥MPEG files¡¦

Use your mouse to highlight the info in the lower panel.
Post to the forum.
(Ctrl + C to copy, Ctrl + V to paste )

The info should indicate Pal settings, showing that VS is installed correctly.
I have no reason to think that this incorrect, but its worth checking.


The settings you are experiencing (640 x 480) will be the capture settings not Video Studios.
They may be the limitations of your capture device.

When we capture to Video Studio from an analogue source we have to select the capture settings/properties.
From the Capture stage select DVD as the Capture Format.
This should default the settings to Pal-Dvd.

Click the Options cogwheel, select Video and Audio Capture Properties settings
Here you can adjust the settings with pre-defined limits (dvd compatibility)


So What type of camera are you using?
A camcorder, analogue or digital Dv,Dvd etc.
Does the camera have Dv-Out terminal.?????
OR:-
A still camera taking video??????????

[duel]

hey guys! Thanks again for your continued help. Now there's a couple of misunderstandings here and there but nothing that can't be set straight! With each of your paragraphs it gives me something to delve into and research further so I'm learning bit by bit and things are definantly moving forward

This business about me having 640 x 480 as the default was when I was capturing the video from my analogue (as stated in my first post!) camera in the avi and mpeg formats. Now that I have chosen DVD as the capture format (as prompted), it sets everything up nicely with the full frame size you guys mentioned. I did however, notice that I also have the option to change the aspect ratio. The default is 4:3 and the other is 16:9. After reading this, I believe it's generally best to capture in 4:3. I also found an interesting article about some chap trying to convert his 4:3 stuff to 16:9 here and came across anamorphic DVD which I'll look into. Think I'll just stick to 4:3 for now and everything should be gravy.

Now assuming I've successfully captured footage in the DVD-PAL format and it's nicely encoded (is that the right word?) in MPEG-2 like so;



From what you've told me, I obviously now I have the right format to go ahead and create a DVD. Before we go any further and do that though, I was looking at the following screen;



As well as the PAL DVD (4:3) option there is a PAL MPEG2 (720 X 576, 25fps) option. This is what I've just captured the video in right? So would this be a good format to create a video file in if I just want to view it on my computer?

There also appears to be a 'Share Video Online' thing as well.



If I choose to create a video in one of these WMV formats using the footage I previously captured in PAL DVD / MPEG2 will this be okay? Or would I be better off capturing the video in this WMV format to start off with?

The reason I ask is because it would save me a great deal of time if I can capture footage in a generic form (the PAL DVD format) and then create whatever I want from it rather than having to capture it multiple times for each thing - DVD, Web and Computer. If anyone can answer this then I think I'll take a huge step forward in understanding what I have to work with.

What camera do you use?

I'm using a Samsung VP-L700 8mm analogue camera which uses Hi8 tapes.

Feel free to correct, question or point out any mistakes in what I've said because a lot of what makes it up are assumptions.

[Ken Berry]

The frame format you have captured in (352 x 288) is DVD compliant, but is only half frame, and a small frame at that... Can't you set your capture to DVD format but actually using the 720 x 576? That other format you highlighted for mpeg-2 capture is right as far as the frame size is concerned, but it must also have a Field Order and for analogue capture, that would normally be Upper Field First.

You would also be better being able to set the bitrate to around 6000 kbps, though some here would argue that the default 4000 kbps that you have used is OK for analogue video. But with that half frame size you used, I suspect the end result on DVD might not be good quality. Even 5000 kbps is likely to give you better quality.

As for using WMV format, it is a highly compressed Microsoft format which can give good quality. But being highly compressed, it is not meant to be edited very much. And in addition, VS takes ages to process it.

Your idea of capturing some more generally recognised format like mpeg-2 is good, given the device you are using. So capture in mpeg-2 -- hopefully with a bigger frame size and higher bit rate, and with the correct Field Order --- and do your editing in that format. Then use that to burn a disc, and convert it to other formats from that one too.

[duel]

The frame format you have captured in (352 x 288) is DVD compliant, but is only half frame, and a small frame at that... Can't you set your capture to DVD format but actually using the 720 x 576?

Yeah that's no problem as I mentioned in my previous post. I made a mistake in that particular instance but have now updated the above image to reflect what I'm doing.

By the looks of things, using the maximum frame size sets the bit-rate to (variable) 8000 kbps.

Unfortunately the capture is pretty jerky compared to capturing in 352 X 288, has anyone got an idea why this is? I played with the bit-rate but this didn't make any difference. I've created an MPEG-2 video out of the clip properties in my above post and uploaded it so you can see for yourself. I appreciate it may take a couple of minutes to download as it's not in a web format but I thought this may risk affecting the video further.

Here's the link;

http://rapidshare.com/files/34630289/Untitled.mpg.html

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Duel

The Templates available Pal-Dvd is an Mpeg 2

If you use this template VS will allow you to change/select certain properties but within the compatibility of dvd standards. (Notice the frame size is limited.)

If you choose to use the Mpeg 2 option then you are allowed to select properties other than dvd compatible. (notice the frame size options here)

By using the Pal-Dvd template you are almost certain to use correct/compatible properties.

[duel]

Hi Duel

The Templates available Pal-Dvd is an Mpeg 2

If you use this template VS will allow you to change/select certain properties but within the compatibility of dvd standards. (Notice the frame size is limited.)

If you choose to use the Mpeg 2 option then you are allowed to select properties other than dvd compatible. (notice the frame size options here)

By using the Pal-Dvd template you are almost certain to use correct/compatible properties.

Hi Trevor

To be honest, I'm really not sure what you're trying to tell me here. I can appreciate that by choosing DVD as the capture format then VS will set me up to work within the constrains of DVD protocol and that by choosing a different format such as MPEG-2 I run the risk of capturing footage that isn't compatible for DVD production. No offense, but that is pretty self explanatory. If I'm missing the point and you're interested in the templates on my version of studio, here are some screen dumps;






I've already established I'm confortable in using the DVD-PAL format with maximum frame size with everyones help. As far as I know I can make videos into DVD's, for my computer and on the web all from this capture format by choosing the different options when exporting. Unless I'm making a mistake somewhere in what I've just said or my previous post, all I'm really concerned with now is that which I've stated. Here it is again if you missed it;

Unfortunately the capture is pretty jerky compared to capturing in 352 X 288, has anyone got an idea why this is? I played with the bit-rate but this didn't make any difference. I've created an MPEG-2 video out of the clip properties in my above post and uploaded it so you can see for yourself. I appreciate it may take a couple of minutes to download as it's not in a web format but I thought this may risk affecting the video further.

Here's the link;

http://rapidshare.com/files/34630289/Untitled.mpg.html

If that's a bit vague and you need more info I'm more than happy to provide it (if I can work out what to do ^_^).

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi Duel

Jerky video is usually associated with incorrect interlacing.

When you capture video for dvd the frames are normally interlaced.

Upper Field is usually used for Analogue Capture
Lower Field is usual for Digital Capture.
Interlaced video is usually displayed on a standard TV.
The new HD videos may break the rules.

A Frame Based video file is normally for the internet audience ie pc monitor.

I have downloaded your Mpeg and find it to contain the following properties.

MPEG files
24 bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
Frame-based
(DVD-PAL), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 6000 kbps)
Audio data rate: 224 kbps
MPEG audio layer 2, 48 KHz, Stereo

Clearly you can see that you have used Frame Based.

I do not know if this was during the capture or the convert stage.

Interlacing is a difficult subject, and no-one will give you a 100% answer as to Upper or Lower field.
But again:- Upper Field is usually used for Analogue Capture
Lower Field is usual for Digital Capture..

From the capture window, ¡¥Options¡¦ cogwheel gives you the choice of ¡¥Change Field Order¡¦, This allows you to detect the source field order.

But if you are capturing analogue then Upper Field.

The only other two changes I would make in your properties is to use Constant Bit Rate at 6000. Audio would be Digital Dolby, That¡¦s just a personal choice.

Hope this Helps