OK. I was very happen to see the VS11+ out hoping that I can edit clips from my Panasonic HDC-SD1 (hard the Sony SR1E before....)
I immediately came to the realization that there seems to be something wrong with the AVCHD being handled in VS11+. The Panasonica records AVCHD in 1440X1080i and I can play the AVCHD directory in PowerDVD 7 Ultra and the clips in Nero. If I turn on the de-interlace option in these 2 players, the videos are crisp and clear. Some degree of blockiness is observed but given that this is a consumer device, results are more then acceptable.
The subjective quality of the original clips from the Panny is closer to SR1E and way better than the Sanyo HD1( which I also had before)...
However, when the clips are imported into VS11+ (via Import from DVD....), the video seems to show as interlace (which it should) but worse yet, there are severe "ghosting" effect on the imported clips and exported clips. By ghosting, I mean that on moving subjects, there are a clear double image (like I can see the outline of a moving hand from the previous frame super-imposed on the currect frame).
I imported the same clip into Nero Vision and recoded into Mpeg2 using the same settings (25FPS, Progressive in Nero, Frambased in VS11+, same resolutions..... etc) and the clip from Nero does not have the ghosting effects that the VS11+ has. In fact, I have 2 pictures from the clips from Nero and VS11+ to show that even when paused, Nero is free of the ghosting and yet VS11+ is very visible. This does not bold well for the VS11+. I suspect there is something wrong with the way VS11+ is importing the AVCHD clips or the the ulead mpeg encoder/decoded. Maybe it does not probably handle de-interlace of the AVCHD clips.
I am pointing fingers at de-interlace because I see the same ghosting artifacts when I disable de-interlace options in PowerDVD and Nero showtime. However, Nero vision seems to be able to handle this much better when re-encode the clips.
Ulead, please help. I sent an email to your tech support and haven't got any response......
And for fellow Panny HDC-SD1 owners, do you see the same problem via VS11+?
Many thanks.
Quality Problem with AVCHD import and encode from Panny SD1
Moderator: Ken Berry
Marshall,
First when starting VS setup your preferences & the working directory.
In the Preferences screen -> Edit tab -> Resampling Quality = BEST, General TAB -> "Show Message when inserting first video clip into timeline" = ON.
After you import the h264 clips using the dvd/dvd-vr disk import feature if you right click on the video (while on the timeline) what are the "Properties" of the video.
This would be the video/audio properties of the h264 video files.
They should read:
FrameSize = 1440x1080 Upper Field First
Aspect Ratio = 16:9
FrameRate = 29.97fps for ntsc, 25fps for Pal
Video Data Rate = 16000kbs (this can vary depending on the recording mode)
Audio = Dolby (either 2/0 or 5.1 @ 448kbs )
Next check you Project Settings: "File -> Project Settings -> Edit file format = MPEG. Then click on the "Edit" Button.
Under the Compression Tab change Media Type to "Mpeg2".
Then change all the other settings to match the settings of your source H264 video files. You must change the "Media Type" under the "Compression Tab" to "Mpeg2" first to activate the HD-Mpeg2 settings.
Example:
General Tab: FrameRate = 29.97 for NTSC, 25 for PAL
--------------- FrameType = Upper Field First
--------------- FrameSize = 1440x1080
--------------- AspectRatio = 16:9 (Preset automatically)
Compression Tab:
--------------- Media Type = Mpeg2
--------------- Quality = 70% - 100%
--------------- Video Data Rate = Variable 16000kbs
--------------- Audio Format = Mpeg Audio
--------------- Audio Type = Stereo
--------------- Audio Frequency = 48000hz
--------------- Audio Bit Rate = 384kbs
Close Project Settings & save the project.
Create a hd-mpeg2 file that can be edited:
Goto "Share -> Create Video File -> Same as Project Settings
Save the video file, start a new project and use this new hd-mpeg2 file for editing. When you insert the video file VS will ask to change the project settings to equal the source video, answer "Yes". VS should then make the necessary changes to your "Project Settings". The same settings you manually created above.
Your correct about the de-interlacing mode in PowerDvd_7. This is good for computer screen playback because computer screens are frame-based. If the file was played back on a HDTV at 1080i then you wouldn't need to de-interlace the video for smoother motion. The HDTV in 1080i display mode will use the 2 fields (top & bottom) to create each frame. So the HDTV uses the 2 fields.
When you are ready to create a HD-DVD then goto "Share -> Create Disk" to open up the "Project Burning Module". If you don't want to edit the video you can also open up VS and go directly into this "Burning Module" and load the hd-mpeg2 compliant video into the burning module and burn a hd-dvd without having to re-render anything again.
That's another set of instructions.
First when starting VS setup your preferences & the working directory.
In the Preferences screen -> Edit tab -> Resampling Quality = BEST, General TAB -> "Show Message when inserting first video clip into timeline" = ON.
After you import the h264 clips using the dvd/dvd-vr disk import feature if you right click on the video (while on the timeline) what are the "Properties" of the video.
This would be the video/audio properties of the h264 video files.
They should read:
FrameSize = 1440x1080 Upper Field First
Aspect Ratio = 16:9
FrameRate = 29.97fps for ntsc, 25fps for Pal
Video Data Rate = 16000kbs (this can vary depending on the recording mode)
Audio = Dolby (either 2/0 or 5.1 @ 448kbs )
Next check you Project Settings: "File -> Project Settings -> Edit file format = MPEG. Then click on the "Edit" Button.
Under the Compression Tab change Media Type to "Mpeg2".
Then change all the other settings to match the settings of your source H264 video files. You must change the "Media Type" under the "Compression Tab" to "Mpeg2" first to activate the HD-Mpeg2 settings.
Example:
General Tab: FrameRate = 29.97 for NTSC, 25 for PAL
--------------- FrameType = Upper Field First
--------------- FrameSize = 1440x1080
--------------- AspectRatio = 16:9 (Preset automatically)
Compression Tab:
--------------- Media Type = Mpeg2
--------------- Quality = 70% - 100%
--------------- Video Data Rate = Variable 16000kbs
--------------- Audio Format = Mpeg Audio
--------------- Audio Type = Stereo
--------------- Audio Frequency = 48000hz
--------------- Audio Bit Rate = 384kbs
Close Project Settings & save the project.
Create a hd-mpeg2 file that can be edited:
Goto "Share -> Create Video File -> Same as Project Settings
Save the video file, start a new project and use this new hd-mpeg2 file for editing. When you insert the video file VS will ask to change the project settings to equal the source video, answer "Yes". VS should then make the necessary changes to your "Project Settings". The same settings you manually created above.
Your correct about the de-interlacing mode in PowerDvd_7. This is good for computer screen playback because computer screens are frame-based. If the file was played back on a HDTV at 1080i then you wouldn't need to de-interlace the video for smoother motion. The HDTV in 1080i display mode will use the 2 fields (top & bottom) to create each frame. So the HDTV uses the 2 fields.
When you are ready to create a HD-DVD then goto "Share -> Create Disk" to open up the "Project Burning Module". If you don't want to edit the video you can also open up VS and go directly into this "Burning Module" and load the hd-mpeg2 compliant video into the burning module and burn a hd-dvd without having to re-render anything again.
That's another set of instructions.
-
markk655
SD1 and VS11+
Marshall,
It looks like there a bunch of us in a similar boat with the SD1 and trying to use VS11+. I am still trying out quite a few workflow things to see what works best.
Haveyou seen this thread? It may answer some questions. I wish everythign was in one place in the forum...
No answers yet, but can you detail your entire process of getting the files from the camcorder into VS and then output into a movie? Are you actually making a whole project when you see the ghosting or just a single clip? Just wondering if there is a setting that isn't right...
It looks like there a bunch of us in a similar boat with the SD1 and trying to use VS11+. I am still trying out quite a few workflow things to see what works best.
Haveyou seen this thread? It may answer some questions. I wish everythign was in one place in the forum...
No answers yet, but can you detail your entire process of getting the files from the camcorder into VS and then output into a movie? Are you actually making a whole project when you see the ghosting or just a single clip? Just wondering if there is a setting that isn't right...
-
markk655
etech6355,
Thanks for the settings. In the other thread you also mentioned to edit an HD Mpeg file too. I always throught the path of the fewest re-renders should keep th ebest video quality. I know HD mpegs are less compressed, but what is the other part of the rationale for converting AVCHD to HD Mpeg. Smartproxy seems to take care of my performance issues.
Thanks for the settings. In the other thread you also mentioned to edit an HD Mpeg file too. I always throught the path of the fewest re-renders should keep th ebest video quality. I know HD mpegs are less compressed, but what is the other part of the rationale for converting AVCHD to HD Mpeg. Smartproxy seems to take care of my performance issues.
Mark,
A few reasons. When VS or MF creates a hd-dvd it converts the h264 videos to hd-mpeg2 anyway. If you convert the h264 videos to hd-mpeg2 they will be easier to manage as far as editors and making more hd-dvd's in the future. You won't have to re-convert the h264 videos into a more editable format.
Also for better cross compatibility, easier for ulead programs and others to edit the mpeg2 format. Also the format that ulead uses to create a hd-dvd. So you can convert the video to hd-mpeg2, save the video to harddisk or backup on a dvd. At a later time you can open up the Burning Module and quickly create a hd-dvd using these hd-mpeg2 video files. Because they are hd-mpeg2 compliant in the burning module there is an option that says "Do Not Convert Compliant Mpeg Video". With this option checked on and the videos already being hd-mpeg2 compliant the burning module will not re-render the hd-mpeg again and burn it directly to a hd-dvd .
So at a later date it's very easy to create a different customized hd-dvd without any loss of quality. Or a Blu-Ray Disk in the BDAV Mode.
Neither hd-mpeg2 nor avchd(H264) are true editable formats. Neither format is frame accurate for what I call reliable editing. HD-Mpeg2 is in my opinion the lesser of 2 evils. You can work with the hd-mpeg2 video easier because mpeg editors have had quite a few years of experience with editing them.
VS11+ has a new feature called "Mpeg Optimizer". If you start a new project and insert a hd-mpeg2 video file (match the project settings). Then goto "Share -> Mpeg Optimizer". When the optimizer pops up click on the details button. In the Details screen you will see exactly what sections of the video will be re-rendered and what sections will not be re-rendered.
This is a new feature and looks pretty nice. You can also double check all the video/audio parameters in this module.
Mpeg2 whether it's standard def or high def is a very compressed format to start with. The H264 codec is compressing video much more than the mpeg codec does. For quality reasons you may want to try converting to CBR@25000kbs hd-mpeg2. I have a Sony HC3 that records in the hd-mpeg2 format CBR@25000kbs. I edit these files and the videos still look nice.
If your method of using the proxy files works go with it. I'd prefer the mpeg2 format for future uses and ease of editing. It would be nice if computers were fast enough to edit and export directly in the avchd H264 codec the same as the mpeg2 format. Someday this will happen.
A few reasons. When VS or MF creates a hd-dvd it converts the h264 videos to hd-mpeg2 anyway. If you convert the h264 videos to hd-mpeg2 they will be easier to manage as far as editors and making more hd-dvd's in the future. You won't have to re-convert the h264 videos into a more editable format.
Also for better cross compatibility, easier for ulead programs and others to edit the mpeg2 format. Also the format that ulead uses to create a hd-dvd. So you can convert the video to hd-mpeg2, save the video to harddisk or backup on a dvd. At a later time you can open up the Burning Module and quickly create a hd-dvd using these hd-mpeg2 video files. Because they are hd-mpeg2 compliant in the burning module there is an option that says "Do Not Convert Compliant Mpeg Video". With this option checked on and the videos already being hd-mpeg2 compliant the burning module will not re-render the hd-mpeg again and burn it directly to a hd-dvd .
So at a later date it's very easy to create a different customized hd-dvd without any loss of quality. Or a Blu-Ray Disk in the BDAV Mode.
Neither hd-mpeg2 nor avchd(H264) are true editable formats. Neither format is frame accurate for what I call reliable editing. HD-Mpeg2 is in my opinion the lesser of 2 evils. You can work with the hd-mpeg2 video easier because mpeg editors have had quite a few years of experience with editing them.
VS11+ has a new feature called "Mpeg Optimizer". If you start a new project and insert a hd-mpeg2 video file (match the project settings). Then goto "Share -> Mpeg Optimizer". When the optimizer pops up click on the details button. In the Details screen you will see exactly what sections of the video will be re-rendered and what sections will not be re-rendered.
This is a new feature and looks pretty nice. You can also double check all the video/audio parameters in this module.
Mpeg2 whether it's standard def or high def is a very compressed format to start with. The H264 codec is compressing video much more than the mpeg codec does. For quality reasons you may want to try converting to CBR@25000kbs hd-mpeg2. I have a Sony HC3 that records in the hd-mpeg2 format CBR@25000kbs. I edit these files and the videos still look nice.
If your method of using the proxy files works go with it. I'd prefer the mpeg2 format for future uses and ease of editing. It would be nice if computers were fast enough to edit and export directly in the avchd H264 codec the same as the mpeg2 format. Someday this will happen.
-
marshall
My clip read:
FrameSize = 1440x1080
Aspect Ratio = 16:9
FrameRate = 25fps
Video Data Rate = 10139kbs (this can vary depending on the recording mode)
Audio = Dolby (5.1 @ 384kbs )
No where does it mention uff/lff/frame based
I have followed your directions in matching the project setting to the clip. Tried to create a mpeg2-hd clip with video rate 10139kbs and higher (18000), take care to match all the settings as you mentioned.
The ghosting image is still showing up in the resulting clips. In fact, I tried lff/uff/frame based and all still have ghosting.
Anything else I should try?
PS. I also play the imported clip (the .m2t file) in PowerDVD and Nero Showtime and they show correct information and de-interlace correctly. It is only when VS11 tries to transcode them into any other format that the ghosting happens.....
FrameSize = 1440x1080
Aspect Ratio = 16:9
FrameRate = 25fps
Video Data Rate = 10139kbs (this can vary depending on the recording mode)
Audio = Dolby (5.1 @ 384kbs )
No where does it mention uff/lff/frame based
I have followed your directions in matching the project setting to the clip. Tried to create a mpeg2-hd clip with video rate 10139kbs and higher (18000), take care to match all the settings as you mentioned.
The ghosting image is still showing up in the resulting clips. In fact, I tried lff/uff/frame based and all still have ghosting.
Anything else I should try?
PS. I also play the imported clip (the .m2t file) in PowerDVD and Nero Showtime and they show correct information and de-interlace correctly. It is only when VS11 tries to transcode them into any other format that the ghosting happens.....
-
markk655
etech,
Thanks for the very detailed answer! Would you recommend it if you were also outputting to Standard DVDs as well? The plan would be to keep the high def footage and then dumb it down during the burning process?
Marshall - Did you use the Panasonic software to download your files as m2ts or did you just copy the folder with mts files? I don't know if that is the issue, but it merits checking out. The Panny software must be doing something other than changing the file name. Although according to a rep, it doesn't, but then why would it do it???
Thanks for the very detailed answer! Would you recommend it if you were also outputting to Standard DVDs as well? The plan would be to keep the high def footage and then dumb it down during the burning process?
Marshall - Did you use the Panasonic software to download your files as m2ts or did you just copy the folder with mts files? I don't know if that is the issue, but it merits checking out. The Panny software must be doing something other than changing the file name. Although according to a rep, it doesn't, but then why would it do it???
-
marshall
-
markk655
I was hoping that you were going to say you used the Panasonic download software tool. I have imported the SD1 files into VS after the Panasonic tool ('cause it was already done beforehand). So, the m2ts files do go in. Though there is no mention of the fielding in my files either in VS11.
I was going to try just copying the files over later in the hopes that the tool was causing grief by converting the file format - somehow. But I guess I don't have to now.
I think you answered some of this already... Is your project listed as interlaced? Is your output interlaced as well? I am new to VS (transferring from another vendor) but from the sounds of it, we should be outputting as interlaced as possible too. Does the ghosting appear on your monitor or on an HDTV?
I was going to try just copying the files over later in the hopes that the tool was causing grief by converting the file format - somehow. But I guess I don't have to now.
I think you answered some of this already... Is your project listed as interlaced? Is your output interlaced as well? I am new to VS (transferring from another vendor) but from the sounds of it, we should be outputting as interlaced as possible too. Does the ghosting appear on your monitor or on an HDTV?
-
marshall
I tried outputing the project to lff/uff/fb. Ghosting is in all three. So does not seem to make a difference. And I am just viewing on my LCD at the moment. However, the Nero Vision transcoded file has no such ghosting problems.....
I am curious, though. How do you import the m2ts files into VS11plus? Because I still have some m2ts files from my SR1E and if I can import them into VS11+, I should be able to tell if the problem is specific to our Panny SD1 or happens to the AVCHD format as a whole.....
I am curious, though. How do you import the m2ts files into VS11plus? Because I still have some m2ts files from my SR1E and if I can import them into VS11+, I should be able to tell if the problem is specific to our Panny SD1 or happens to the AVCHD format as a whole.....
markk655 wrote:I was hoping that you were going to say you used the Panasonic download software tool. I have imported the SD1 files into VS after the Panasonic tool ('cause it was already done beforehand). So, the m2ts files do go in. Though there is no mention of the fielding in my files either in VS11.
I was going to try just copying the files over later in the hopes that the tool was causing grief by converting the file format - somehow. But I guess I don't have to now.
I think you answered some of this already... Is your project listed as interlaced? Is your output interlaced as well? I am new to VS (transferring from another vendor) but from the sounds of it, we should be outputting as interlaced as possible too. Does the ghosting appear on your monitor or on an HDTV?
-
markk655
How I get my m2ts (from the SD1) into VS11+....
- In edit tab (it should work in capture but I haven't tried it), File>InsertMediafile to Library>Insert DVD/DVD-VR. Then select the AVCHD folder. I brought my files in via the Panny software and it essentially stores the entire set of folders (have no idea what the rest do). The software converts mts to m2ts. Using VS11, there is no issue with the importation, but it still does not recognize the fielding.
Have you tried using Nero Vision to convert to HD mpeg and then importing into VS11 for editing? If Nero works you might be able to convert to progressive format. It is worth a shot.
- In edit tab (it should work in capture but I haven't tried it), File>InsertMediafile to Library>Insert DVD/DVD-VR. Then select the AVCHD folder. I brought my files in via the Panny software and it essentially stores the entire set of folders (have no idea what the rest do). The software converts mts to m2ts. Using VS11, there is no issue with the importation, but it still does not recognize the fielding.
Have you tried using Nero Vision to convert to HD mpeg and then importing into VS11 for editing? If Nero works you might be able to convert to progressive format. It is worth a shot.
-
marshall
I guess great minds think a likemarkk655 wrote:How I get my m2ts (from the SD1) into VS11+....
- In edit tab (it should work in capture but I haven't tried it), File>InsertMediafile to Library>Insert DVD/DVD-VR. Then select the AVCHD folder. I brought my files in via the Panny software and it essentially stores the entire set of folders (have no idea what the rest do). The software converts mts to m2ts. Using VS11, there is no issue with the importation, but it still does not recognize the fielding.
Have you tried using Nero Vision to convert to HD mpeg and then importing into VS11 for editing? If Nero works you might be able to convert to progressive format. It is worth a shot.
Just done that before I see your message and result is marvellous!It is just a pain in the rear that I had to do this to make it work
There is definitely some problem with the UVS11 handling of transcoding AVCHD files. I can't import m2ts from my sr1 (because the stupid sony software only gave me the m2ts file and not the directory structure) so I can't compare......
The problem with this approach is that there is no simple way to retain the 5.1 audio track..... Except if we manually rib the audio track out in VS11+ into an audio file in WMV format......... And we all know that when we do that, we run into higher potential of audio and video not sync'ing correctly......
Last edited by marshall on Tue May 15, 2007 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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markk655
More on frame rates - VS11+ not importing correctly
Nero Vision: 59.94 FPS. vs11+ 29.97 fps. There is mention of fielding in VS11+. It appears to be misreading the file as progressive encoded instead of interlaced. I know this has been discussed. I just wanted to confirm it as well.
Total frames (Nero Vision 4) 10284. Total frames VS11+ 5142.
I think etech hit it right on the money. VS11+ does not appear to be importing the files properly.
I only have the trial version, so I can't even file this with Support (and I am not going to spend money on the product unless I know it works). Can someone please file this with tech support? Perhaps they have an answer???
Total frames (Nero Vision 4) 10284. Total frames VS11+ 5142.
I think etech hit it right on the money. VS11+ does not appear to be importing the files properly.
I only have the trial version, so I can't even file this with Support (and I am not going to spend money on the product unless I know it works). Can someone please file this with tech support? Perhaps they have an answer???
-
marshall
What seems to work....
So to sum it up, what seems to work for the Panny SD1 AVCHD (don't know if it applies to Sony AVCHD cams.....)
1) Use Nero Vision to read directly from the AVCHD directory and encode to either HDV2 or mpeg2. (You will lose the 5.1 audio and have stereo instead)
2) Rip the 5.1 audio out with UVS11 by importing the AVCHD directory and create an audio file in a format with 5.1 capability (WMA 8? ugk...)
3) Create a project setting for mpeg with 1440x1080 format and enable 5.1 sound.
4) Import the video file from Nero Vision into UVS11 plus
5) If you want the 5.1 audio, mute the audio from the imported Video in the project, and import the 5.1 audio file that you ripped in step 3 instead.
6) export the project to a format of your choice (almost certainly a customized WMVHD profile with 5.1 sound......)
Geez, I was hoping that the UVS11plus will be a one-stop-shop for this.....
1) Use Nero Vision to read directly from the AVCHD directory and encode to either HDV2 or mpeg2. (You will lose the 5.1 audio and have stereo instead)
2) Rip the 5.1 audio out with UVS11 by importing the AVCHD directory and create an audio file in a format with 5.1 capability (WMA 8? ugk...)
3) Create a project setting for mpeg with 1440x1080 format and enable 5.1 sound.
4) Import the video file from Nero Vision into UVS11 plus
5) If you want the 5.1 audio, mute the audio from the imported Video in the project, and import the 5.1 audio file that you ripped in step 3 instead.
6) export the project to a format of your choice (almost certainly a customized WMVHD profile with 5.1 sound......)
Geez, I was hoping that the UVS11plus will be a one-stop-shop for this.....
-
markk655