I recently purchased the new version of VS11 Plus, as I am an extremely satisfied user from VS10+ and also especially like the recently released MovieFactory 6+. My interest is only in making HD DVDs, which all of these products can create.
I was extremely disappointed to find that the image quality of the HD DVDs I produce with the new VS11+ is much lower than that from MovieFactory 6+.
Movie Factory 6+ takes my HDV file and produces the HD DVD disk with no re-rendering in a very short time period, and the results are stunningly beautiful to see. Video Factory 11+ re-renders the output, taking quite a bit of time in the process, and the results are noticeably inferior, with soft images and added motion artifacts. To make the comparison, I provided both programs with the identical HDV video clip, set up both of the programs for the same Project Properties and disk output properties, and have done no editing whatsoever of the clip within either program. I have not added anything else......no menus, no titles, no effects.....nothing........
I made the comparison as basic and simple as possible to merely compare image quality of the two programs, since my first results with using the new Video Studio 11+ were so disappointing. I therefore went back to my prior HDV files and re-authored the same disks I was totally satisfied with in Movie Factory and did them again in Video Studio 11 to try and find out why the image quality had suffered so much.
Does anybody else have both programs and HDV content who can confirm my experiences?
Thanks very much.
Larry
Poor rendering quality in HD for VS11 Plus
Moderator: Ken Berry
Larry,
I'm only using the trial of VS11+ right now but it's probably your workflow method. Looks to me like VS11 has a few changes for working with mpeg2 video. I can't set my project settings to 1440x1080@25Mbs. I can use 1920x1080@25Mbs.
But that doesn't appear to be very critical maybe. Under "Preferences" make sure "Show MPEG Optimizer Dialog Box" is checked on. When you go to create a new video file of the final project use "Share -> Create Video File -> MPEG Optimizer"
If you click on the "Show Detail" all the specs will be displayed of the encoding process, really nice feature.
Make sure when going into the burning module the timeline is empty. So render your final project that will be the target video for the HD-DVD to a new hd-mpeg2 video file.
Then start a new project, go to "Share -> Create Disk" (with an empty timeline). Then in the burning module insert your rendered hd-mpeg2 video file. In the burning module goto "Preferences" and make the proper settings (the burning module is like another video application).
VS11+ kept all my videos the same as MF6+ with respect to quality. Matter of fact VS11+ has a lot of nice features for working with the HD video that aren't in MF6+ so having both programs is a nice arsenal.
Check out the "MPEG Optimizer" for rendering a new video file, it's pretty cool.
I'm only using the trial of VS11+ right now but it's probably your workflow method. Looks to me like VS11 has a few changes for working with mpeg2 video. I can't set my project settings to 1440x1080@25Mbs. I can use 1920x1080@25Mbs.
But that doesn't appear to be very critical maybe. Under "Preferences" make sure "Show MPEG Optimizer Dialog Box" is checked on. When you go to create a new video file of the final project use "Share -> Create Video File -> MPEG Optimizer"
If you click on the "Show Detail" all the specs will be displayed of the encoding process, really nice feature.
Make sure when going into the burning module the timeline is empty. So render your final project that will be the target video for the HD-DVD to a new hd-mpeg2 video file.
Then start a new project, go to "Share -> Create Disk" (with an empty timeline). Then in the burning module insert your rendered hd-mpeg2 video file. In the burning module goto "Preferences" and make the proper settings (the burning module is like another video application).
VS11+ kept all my videos the same as MF6+ with respect to quality. Matter of fact VS11+ has a lot of nice features for working with the HD video that aren't in MF6+ so having both programs is a nice arsenal.
Check out the "MPEG Optimizer" for rendering a new video file, it's pretty cool.
etech6355,
You arrived at exactly the same "solution" to the problem as I did, in my case taking many hours of experimentation to arrive at the non-intuitive method of breaking the HD-DVD editing and creation process into the 2 separate steps. By first rendering to an HDV file, and then opening a new disk creation project, I too was able to retain the original quality. Most important to me with the discovery that adding titles, overlays, etc. need not compromise the eventual rendering quality, a conclusion I would have disagreed with a day earlier when I had no way to go from end to end without "spoiling" the pristine HDV detail.
I too was a bit stymied by the lack of 25 Mbit/sec 1440 by 1080, and am not sure why this limitation (to 18 Mbits/sec) is forced. I assume it is a software bug, since the "Create Disk" path does not lead to the same constraint.
Despite the fact that the workflow becomes a bit slower and the process requires slightly more care and workspace, it is a true "work-around" to the bug which now haunts the new VS11Plus. Hopefully Ulead will address it soon, since most users would never be willing to spend so much time and effort to figure out what the cause is, and merely live with the degraded results. In fact, had I not started with the truly wonderful results of MF6+, I would have not likely been nearly as disappointed with VS11+ and spent all the time I did trying to get it to work as well.......
On the bright side, both programs now can provide truly outstanding finished results at low cost and good ease of use, all considered. I may wind up using VS11+ only as an editor and use MF6+ only as a disk authoring tool, and "make pretend" that is what they were intended for to avoid this altogether. I find the new VS11+ in general to be a good upgrade with some nice features. I was a bit disappointed with the lack of explanation in the new manual for some of the recently added filters, and have yet to learn by experimentation how to use and set the DeNoise, DeSnow, and DeBlock parameters.
I want to thank you etech6355 for your really remarkable degree of assistance, intelligent guidance, and perseverance in these issues. I seldom if ever have met someone as competent and knowledgable as you are.
Very best,
Larry
You arrived at exactly the same "solution" to the problem as I did, in my case taking many hours of experimentation to arrive at the non-intuitive method of breaking the HD-DVD editing and creation process into the 2 separate steps. By first rendering to an HDV file, and then opening a new disk creation project, I too was able to retain the original quality. Most important to me with the discovery that adding titles, overlays, etc. need not compromise the eventual rendering quality, a conclusion I would have disagreed with a day earlier when I had no way to go from end to end without "spoiling" the pristine HDV detail.
I too was a bit stymied by the lack of 25 Mbit/sec 1440 by 1080, and am not sure why this limitation (to 18 Mbits/sec) is forced. I assume it is a software bug, since the "Create Disk" path does not lead to the same constraint.
Despite the fact that the workflow becomes a bit slower and the process requires slightly more care and workspace, it is a true "work-around" to the bug which now haunts the new VS11Plus. Hopefully Ulead will address it soon, since most users would never be willing to spend so much time and effort to figure out what the cause is, and merely live with the degraded results. In fact, had I not started with the truly wonderful results of MF6+, I would have not likely been nearly as disappointed with VS11+ and spent all the time I did trying to get it to work as well.......
On the bright side, both programs now can provide truly outstanding finished results at low cost and good ease of use, all considered. I may wind up using VS11+ only as an editor and use MF6+ only as a disk authoring tool, and "make pretend" that is what they were intended for to avoid this altogether. I find the new VS11+ in general to be a good upgrade with some nice features. I was a bit disappointed with the lack of explanation in the new manual for some of the recently added filters, and have yet to learn by experimentation how to use and set the DeNoise, DeSnow, and DeBlock parameters.
I want to thank you etech6355 for your really remarkable degree of assistance, intelligent guidance, and perseverance in these issues. I seldom if ever have met someone as competent and knowledgable as you are.
Very best,
Larry
Larry,
Thank you for the compliment.
Carrying a video over from the timeline in VS to the burning module always forces the video to be re-encoded. This is a known fact with all versions of VS. Some call it a bug and others say it's normal work flow. I like to consider the Burning Module a separate program. You have to setup the "Preferences" and working folder in the burning module just as if it was another separate program.
I still have much more to learn with the new VS11+, it seems to be able to natively work with my TS (transport stream) format .m2t files. SmartRenders them much faster then most other programs.
I noticed I cannot create a HD-Mpeg2 file with Dolby Audio from the timeline. But, you can make custom templates in the Burning Module for HD-Mpeg2 and use either mpeg, lpcm, Dolby 2/0 or Dolby 5.1. Then you apply that custom template in the burning module as your project settings in the burning module. Still have to work on the audio conversions in the burning module.
**Here is something I noticed (as you also have), I don't know if this is a bug or the way they wanted VS11+ to work. I import a HD-Mpeg2 HDV Video File 1440x1080 - CBR@25000kbs and VS asks me to change the project settings to equal the source, I answer "Yes".
Now if I goto my "Project Settings" (1st Screen), in the lower left hand corner are the Project Settings. They are correct and match my source video which is 1440x1080@25Mbs, Mpeg Audio@384kbs. Now if I click on the "Edit" Button then under the compression tab it says "CBR 18000" (cannot set this from the 18000kbs to the higher 25000kbs), then clicking OK and leaving the Project Settings the settings are now 18000Mbs. Not sure what's going on with this.So the project settings are correct if I don't hit the "Edit" Icon to change the project settings.
For what I'm doing though this doesn't affect the encoding of the project because I'll either use "Save As First Clip" or the "Mpeg Optimizer" which uses the source videos properties to recode / smartrender the videos.
Thank you for the compliment.
Carrying a video over from the timeline in VS to the burning module always forces the video to be re-encoded. This is a known fact with all versions of VS. Some call it a bug and others say it's normal work flow. I like to consider the Burning Module a separate program. You have to setup the "Preferences" and working folder in the burning module just as if it was another separate program.
I still have much more to learn with the new VS11+, it seems to be able to natively work with my TS (transport stream) format .m2t files. SmartRenders them much faster then most other programs.
I noticed I cannot create a HD-Mpeg2 file with Dolby Audio from the timeline. But, you can make custom templates in the Burning Module for HD-Mpeg2 and use either mpeg, lpcm, Dolby 2/0 or Dolby 5.1. Then you apply that custom template in the burning module as your project settings in the burning module. Still have to work on the audio conversions in the burning module.
**Here is something I noticed (as you also have), I don't know if this is a bug or the way they wanted VS11+ to work. I import a HD-Mpeg2 HDV Video File 1440x1080 - CBR@25000kbs and VS asks me to change the project settings to equal the source, I answer "Yes".
Now if I goto my "Project Settings" (1st Screen), in the lower left hand corner are the Project Settings. They are correct and match my source video which is 1440x1080@25Mbs, Mpeg Audio@384kbs. Now if I click on the "Edit" Button then under the compression tab it says "CBR 18000" (cannot set this from the 18000kbs to the higher 25000kbs), then clicking OK and leaving the Project Settings the settings are now 18000Mbs. Not sure what's going on with this.So the project settings are correct if I don't hit the "Edit" Icon to change the project settings.
For what I'm doing though this doesn't affect the encoding of the project because I'll either use "Save As First Clip" or the "Mpeg Optimizer" which uses the source videos properties to recode / smartrender the videos.
It's true that this re-rendering step does seem to occur when going from the edited timeline to the burner / disk creation step, but it does not make any sense why. It seems especially ironic that Movie Factory 6+, which I don't believe makes any claims of using SmartRender technology, takes the HDV content and makes the burner files in a few seconds, leaving their entire content untouched, whereas the more expensive, deluxe, and presumably more competent Video Studio 11+ uses "SmartRender" when no rendering whatsoever is called for. Not sure if I would call it a bug, normal workflow, or just a mistake in marketing.......
Having made that minor rant, I will say that the overall performance and rendering speed generally is excellent, much better in fact that my other (4) HDV editing packages, with super quality as well, so this is hardly an unhappy user talking. To the contrary, I am totally impressed with these products, having started with Ulead 7 years ago with some pretty rough and buggy code in that era.
Handling of the audio is another odd situation, since LPCM is not recognized properly either, and, to my knowledge, cannot be preserved in the rednered file. The fact that you can't render out audio in a muxed ac3 Digital Dolby format may be a constraint imposed by Ulead's licening agreement with Dolby Labs, but really not sure. Again, on the bright side, the burner module does a very nice job of burning, and the editing suite does a nice job of allowing panning, etc.
I too encountered the strange behavior in the Project versus File settings, and the inability to make the project match bitrate at 25 MB/sec. I am guessing that this is a mere bug / mistake, and not a deliberate feature. I was thinking that maybe the fact that Uleads built this specific upgrade so as to incorporate AVCHD camcorders and their codecs (and 18 MBit/sec limit) may have inadvertently / mistakenly caused them to overlook their original HDV customers, ourselves included. Thankfully there is a work-around.
All considered, this is a really nice program and a worthwhile upgrade. I just have to get used to the kinks and learn the work-arounds.....
Thank you once again.
Larry
Having made that minor rant, I will say that the overall performance and rendering speed generally is excellent, much better in fact that my other (4) HDV editing packages, with super quality as well, so this is hardly an unhappy user talking. To the contrary, I am totally impressed with these products, having started with Ulead 7 years ago with some pretty rough and buggy code in that era.
Handling of the audio is another odd situation, since LPCM is not recognized properly either, and, to my knowledge, cannot be preserved in the rednered file. The fact that you can't render out audio in a muxed ac3 Digital Dolby format may be a constraint imposed by Ulead's licening agreement with Dolby Labs, but really not sure. Again, on the bright side, the burner module does a very nice job of burning, and the editing suite does a nice job of allowing panning, etc.
I too encountered the strange behavior in the Project versus File settings, and the inability to make the project match bitrate at 25 MB/sec. I am guessing that this is a mere bug / mistake, and not a deliberate feature. I was thinking that maybe the fact that Uleads built this specific upgrade so as to incorporate AVCHD camcorders and their codecs (and 18 MBit/sec limit) may have inadvertently / mistakenly caused them to overlook their original HDV customers, ourselves included. Thankfully there is a work-around.
All considered, this is a really nice program and a worthwhile upgrade. I just have to get used to the kinks and learn the work-arounds.....
Thank you once again.
Larry
Larry,
The Details show exactly what's going to be done to the file, where the portions will be smart rendered and the other re-encoded. The thing I noticed in this module was it was using the source videos properties to re-encode and not the project settings. I like this method, if you want to actually force a recode then use any of the standard methods.
Usually after I render a new hd-mpeg2 file I'll burn it using MF6+, but VS11+ does this also (it's really MF6+ scaled down with no editing of the video).
MovieFactory does use smartrender and because my hd-mpeg2 files are already hd-dvd compliant and in the project settings of both VS & MF the "Do Not Convert Compliant Mpeg files" is checked ON then nothing is re-rendered. MovieFactory will use smartrender for the "Fast Export", "Fast Export Dvd Compliant" & if it has to recode in the burning stage.
Same here, nice program. What I've been doing so far is inserting the hd-mpeg2 file, answer yes and leave it as that. This way I don't go into the edit portion of the project settings. Then perform any editing cut/trim/transitions, save the project and goto "Share -> Create Video File -> Mpeg Optimizer"so this is hardly an unhappy user talking.
The Details show exactly what's going to be done to the file, where the portions will be smart rendered and the other re-encoded. The thing I noticed in this module was it was using the source videos properties to re-encode and not the project settings. I like this method, if you want to actually force a recode then use any of the standard methods.
Usually after I render a new hd-mpeg2 file I'll burn it using MF6+, but VS11+ does this also (it's really MF6+ scaled down with no editing of the video).
MovieFactory does use smartrender and because my hd-mpeg2 files are already hd-dvd compliant and in the project settings of both VS & MF the "Do Not Convert Compliant Mpeg files" is checked ON then nothing is re-rendered. MovieFactory will use smartrender for the "Fast Export", "Fast Export Dvd Compliant" & if it has to recode in the burning stage.
This mostly makes sense, but runs contrary to intuition and to the way other NLE and authoring programs work, in the specific area of ignoring the project settings and using the file settings. I guess I really don't care so long as the results are great and the render times are short based on no-rerendering being needed or performed. It just takes a little "getting used to", and is probably a flaw which Ulead may eventually correct.
Larry
Larry
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Ken Berry
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LSHorwitz wrote:
And it may not be intuitive to you, but it is my absolutely stock standard workflow and has been since I first started using Video Studio with VS7 well over 5 years ago. Moreover, I would be more than a little upset if Corel/Ulead were to 'correct' it, as you suggest.
The point I am trying to make is that one man's meat is another man's poison, even when it comes to video editing/authoring. Yes, there are many people out there who use your intuitive workflow generally -- not just in relation to HD -- and do so successfully all the time. Some use it most of the time, successfully, but occasionally run into problems. But there are some, like me, who never use it at all, but prefer the non-intuitive (to you) but eminently logical (to me) method of dividing the process into two very distinct steps. And I would further suggest our numbers are not tiny.
And at the end of the day, I wonder what you would tell people like me and stelch when Corel/Ulead correct this 'flaw', leaving us no way of producing a DVD-compatible mpeg-2 if we wanted to use another program for authoring?
End of my rant!!
I suspect there is a mistake in your perceptions here. There is no re-rendering when you go from the editing stage direct to the burning module: it is simply the first rendering, not a RE-render. Even if you have, after editing, done the (to you) non-intuitive thing of first rendering a DVD-compliant mpeg-2, if you do not follow etech's advice about closing the existing project by opening a new project, but leaving the timeline empty, Video Studio automatically inserts your project file into the burning module timeline when the burning module is opened. Note that it inserts the project file, not the DVD-compliant mpeg-2 you have just produced. In other words, VS thinks it still has to convert the project file into usable video.It's true that this re-rendering step does seem to occur when going from the edited timeline to the burner / disk creation step, but it does not make any sense why.
And it may not be intuitive to you, but it is my absolutely stock standard workflow and has been since I first started using Video Studio with VS7 well over 5 years ago. Moreover, I would be more than a little upset if Corel/Ulead were to 'correct' it, as you suggest.
The point I am trying to make is that one man's meat is another man's poison, even when it comes to video editing/authoring. Yes, there are many people out there who use your intuitive workflow generally -- not just in relation to HD -- and do so successfully all the time. Some use it most of the time, successfully, but occasionally run into problems. But there are some, like me, who never use it at all, but prefer the non-intuitive (to you) but eminently logical (to me) method of dividing the process into two very distinct steps. And I would further suggest our numbers are not tiny.
And at the end of the day, I wonder what you would tell people like me and stelch when Corel/Ulead correct this 'flaw', leaving us no way of producing a DVD-compatible mpeg-2 if we wanted to use another program for authoring?
End of my rant!!
Ken Berry
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Nounours18200
I fully agree with Ken, as I feel the UVS features in the same way he does, but I face the same pbs than LSHorwitz with another software: in addition to UVS10+, I also have Magix VideoDeluxe 2007+.
This last one has much more features than UVS10+ (have to wait to 12+ probably...), but, for me, it is a nightmare to use !... UVS looks so much logical and simple to use, that I use it 99% of the time...
Just to say that when we have a lot of experience with a software, it is not simple to switch to another one (I like UVS and continue with it...).
This last one has much more features than UVS10+ (have to wait to 12+ probably...), but, for me, it is a nightmare to use !... UVS looks so much logical and simple to use, that I use it 99% of the time...
Just to say that when we have a lot of experience with a software, it is not simple to switch to another one (I like UVS and continue with it...).
LSHorwitz and etech6355, are you guys creating HD DVDs on regular DVD media or do you have actual HD DVD burners? Does VS11+ make HD DVD content on regular DVDs?
What HD DVD burner are you using?
I've had the Sony HDR-HC1 since it came out, and I recently got the Toshiba XA2... I'm dying to make some HD quality content.
What HD DVD burner are you using?
I've had the Sony HDR-HC1 since it came out, and I recently got the Toshiba XA2... I'm dying to make some HD quality content.
Yes, VS11+ can burn the HD-DVD format on a regular dvd. This will give about 20 minutes of hd-mpeg2 video on a single layer and 40 minutes of hd-mpeg2 video on a dual-layer dvd. You can play the dvd's (with menu's & chapters) in the HD-DVD players now on the market.Does VS11+ make HD DVD content on regular DVDs?
Ken Berry,
With regard to my prior comment regarding "nonintuitive" behavior of Video Studio 11+ and your disagreement with that statement:
When HDV content is brought into Ulead Movie Factory 6 (as well as several other HDV editing programs I use here) and no changes are made whatsoever to this content, the following step, in which the HD DVD files are written to disk, takes place without rendering delays at the very fast speed of disk writing. Even if the LPCM audio needs to be transcoded into ac3 (Digital Dolby) or mpeg audio and re-muxed, as is the case with Vegas 7, Final Cut Pro, Power Director 5, iMovieHD, or other programs I use here, this step is extremely fast, and takes seconds to complete. This is not at all surprising since the .EVO file format used in HD DVDs is virtually the same as the original HDV file, containing an mpeg2 video stream of the same resolution, bitrate, and GOP structure as the original HDV content. In fact, VideoStudio 11+ also carries out the same process in essentially the same very fast manner ***if and only if*** the process which both etech and I independently discovered is used.
Therefore, I previously and currently find it counterintuitive / nonintuitive that a re-rendering takes place by default otherwise, since this process not only adds an enormous time penalty up to several hours...........but, as my original thread subject states.......causes a very noticeable degredation in the image quality as well.
Perhaps it is you who is mistaken when applying the term "re-rendering" to all subsequent post-edit processing performed on the original video content, but I am here to tell you that most if not all well-designed video editing software avoids re-rendering whenever possible, and, in fact, the very purpose of the VS11+ "SmartRender" is to do precisely what I originally stated, namely, ****avoid re-rendering****. Moreover, VS11+ does indeed avoid re-rendering when the "work-around" which etech and I discovered is applied, and it explicitly reports this fact as such. Without the workaround, using the default method you describe, the process is extremely slow and yields poor results.
Larry
With regard to my prior comment regarding "nonintuitive" behavior of Video Studio 11+ and your disagreement with that statement:
When HDV content is brought into Ulead Movie Factory 6 (as well as several other HDV editing programs I use here) and no changes are made whatsoever to this content, the following step, in which the HD DVD files are written to disk, takes place without rendering delays at the very fast speed of disk writing. Even if the LPCM audio needs to be transcoded into ac3 (Digital Dolby) or mpeg audio and re-muxed, as is the case with Vegas 7, Final Cut Pro, Power Director 5, iMovieHD, or other programs I use here, this step is extremely fast, and takes seconds to complete. This is not at all surprising since the .EVO file format used in HD DVDs is virtually the same as the original HDV file, containing an mpeg2 video stream of the same resolution, bitrate, and GOP structure as the original HDV content. In fact, VideoStudio 11+ also carries out the same process in essentially the same very fast manner ***if and only if*** the process which both etech and I independently discovered is used.
Therefore, I previously and currently find it counterintuitive / nonintuitive that a re-rendering takes place by default otherwise, since this process not only adds an enormous time penalty up to several hours...........but, as my original thread subject states.......causes a very noticeable degredation in the image quality as well.
Perhaps it is you who is mistaken when applying the term "re-rendering" to all subsequent post-edit processing performed on the original video content, but I am here to tell you that most if not all well-designed video editing software avoids re-rendering whenever possible, and, in fact, the very purpose of the VS11+ "SmartRender" is to do precisely what I originally stated, namely, ****avoid re-rendering****. Moreover, VS11+ does indeed avoid re-rendering when the "work-around" which etech and I discovered is applied, and it explicitly reports this fact as such. Without the workaround, using the default method you describe, the process is extremely slow and yields poor results.
Larry
Ken,And at the end of the day, I wonder what you would tell people like me and stelch when Corel/Ulead correct this 'flaw', leaving us no way of producing a DVD-compatible mpeg-2 if we wanted to use another program for authoring?
End of my rant!!
What I will tell people like you and stelch is that Ulead has now fixed VS11+ to work properly so that I no longer need to first create a video file and then re-import it into the burning program as I previously was forced to do. I will also tell them that VS11+ now only re-renders if and when it needs to, rather than doing so unnecessarily.
Larry