Producing Pal DVD from mpeg2 hd content

toni1 · Post by **toni1** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:40 pm

Have produced many Pal DVDs of a concert for sitribution from hd footage shot with Sony HC1
Downconversion throuhg VS10 to bitate : 7800 KBPS before producing the dvd
Some of the persons complained freezing , desynchonizing etc, they probably have older dvd readers
What can I do in the future to be sure that most of my freinds with older dvd models can see ;
Bit rate ? constant or variable ; Type : VBR or CDR

daniel · Post by **daniel** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 2:55 pm

7800 is not too much for players.
What you can do to ease the bitrate is use Dolby if you use PCM for audio.

If you you did use Dolby then it's definitely not the bitrate but a badly written disk.

Did you render as a separate step?

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:01 pm

As you are probably aware, there are DVD+R and DVD-R discs. Most newer models can play both types. Older models can have problems. Use this site to cross-reference a certain player to +/- media. In other words, you may have to burn to both media types to satisfy your customers. Also, burning at the slowest speed possible seems to help playability.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 3:23 pm

Hi toni

Older cheaper dvd players seem to play anything, where as the more modern expensive version seem to be more particular. (that¡¦s my opinion)

The disc type is also relevant.
What type of media are u using?
I use DVD-R type discs (personal preference)
What brand are u using. ( I use ritek)

As for bit rate and the like, I use 6000 constant for most of my work.
Providing you don¡¦t go to high then there should be no read problems.

Personally I would look at your workflow and media rather than the players.

You ask about settings, bit rate, var/con etc.
But what settings / properties are u using for your final video.?????????

If you are Ntsc and using Mpeg audio then there may be a problem, (thats just a guess) you just haven't given any info.
You could be Pal and living around the corner, where are u?
What are the properties u are using?

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:09 pm

Burning at a lower speed than that rated for the disc also helps make a DVD more compatible with a wider range of players. In other words, if you are using discs rated to burn at 12x or even 16x, don't use that speed. Instead, burn it at the lowest or second lowest speed that your burner will alow with that disc. It might be 4x (which is my preferred speed across 4 DVD burners which I have) or 6x.

But a low burning speed in effect gives the burning laser a better chance of embedding the digital signal more firmly into the DVD. And a firmer signal means that a wider range of lasers will be able to read it, rather than skating over parts or coming to a dead halt...

toni1 · Post by **toni1** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 11:54 pm

thanks for reply
I am in Pal country
I have done step by step process
first pruduce compatible mpeg2 file
then burn the project to dvd-R on good TDK ou Verbatim in pal format
Gave my master to professional printing company for production.

I'll be giving a new look at those products

Othewise I use bitrate around 7800 in order to keep quality

toni1 · Post by **toni1** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:40 am

In fact the concert had 2 parts 2 dvds

1- First dvd that works well on my computer
PAL 25 FPS
24 bits 720 576 25 fps (normal PAL)
Lower Field first
mpeg2 16/9
Max bit rate 8000
Audio 386
mpeg audio layer2
48 KHZ

2- Second DVD ( sound out of sync by the end of the disc like some of mmy friends reported)

PAL 25 FPS
24 bits 720 576 25 fps (normal PAL)
FRAME BASED (because I wanted to fit around 70 min)
mpeg2 16/9
Max bit rate 7850 (lowerd a bit for same reason)
Audio 386
mpeg audio layer2
48 KHZ

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 8:56 am

Hi Toni

Frame Based

Do not use frame based as a frame order. This option should be for internet viewing.

For creating a dvd and viewing on a tv you should use interlaced.
Lower Field order is usually required when the source video is digital, for analogue capture Upper Field is the normal choice.

Your first dvd properties look ok.
You may get about 70 minutes of video at 8000 kbps, but will be on the limit.

View a few tests (Bit Rates & File Sizes) from the link below
By reducing to 7000 kbps the video should easily fit.

I doubt if you would see any quality difference by reducing the bit rate.

Trevor

toni1 · Post by **toni1** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:11 pm

Thanks Trevor for advice

Did't mention it both are VBR
The main difference :
1- field order : the one out of sync sound is frame based (used to minimize panning artefacts without any noticable advantage)
2-Size : the one out of sync sound is bigger 70 min compared to 60 min (synchronizing probleme happened in the end part of concert as if compression was bigger in the end (VBR) but thats speculations only)

Wonder which one is the bigest contributer to sync problem (or maybe other factors).

Will be testing the good sychronized one on different players to see for other blocking problems mentioned

This was a good real world experience for me

Will sure down scale data rate and keep interlaced for future work

But one last question
What about bit rate type (VBR or CDR) which one is best supported by regular dvd player (less power demanding)

GeorgeW · Post by **GeorgeW** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:24 pm

Did you capture the native HD video from camcorder? (HDV -- or mpeg2)

If so, isn't that HDV/mpeg2 Upper Field First

Regards,
George

toni1 · Post by **toni1** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:24 pm

Yes of course, Those are my steps:
1-capturing hd upper field first
2- editing and rendering edited in hd video ( mpeg2-hd)
with VBR frame based
3- down converting to SD (pal compartible) keeping VBR to produce sd file (one dvd in same frame based and the second to lower fiels first)
4- then take this file to chaptering and burn

Post by **Ken Berry** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:54 am

If it started life as Upper Field First, you MUST, repeat MUST, keep it Upper Field First throughout. Changing the field order to Lower Field First will give you the sort of artefacts that you use Frame Based to avoid! This occurs in fast moving shots and in panning and zooming shots particularly, so I am assuming those you changed to Frame Based involved such actions.

But when down converting, keep ALL the video Upper Field First...

toni1 · Post by **toni1** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 9:43 pm

Thanks Ken
If I did change to Frame based or lower field first , its because i thouht that keeping it in upper fiels format was incompatible with normal sd mpeg2 DVD

Post by **Ken Berry** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:22 pm

No. A standard SD DVD must have mpeg-2, but it can be UFF, LFF or (in the case of slideshows at least) even Frame Based. And you can have different videos on the same DVD which use different Field Orders. No problems.

But *within* an individual video on a DVD, you must consistently use the same Field Order as it started out using in the camera or other source. Changing or mixing different field orders within a single video is a major no-no.

toni1 · Post by **toni1** » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:35 am

Thanks a lot Ken
What is disturbing (for new technics like hd editing) is that one can change settings upon nearly every step .
Its good to have some flexibility, but hd is new and I think its good to have a special hd guide for new users with pactical step by step information.
I am learning a liitle by little by asking questions in users forum and again its great to have someone that can help