camcorders

[ant.scott]

Hi everyone!
'name's Tony and I have not posted before. I guess I have been to busy with the PI Bulletin Board and Photo Impact. This is, (I think), a new thread, where I would like some feedback on choice of camcorder. I shall shortly be getting a new PC and it follows it will have Vista. I use VS 10plus and I know that I can download a patch to get it to operate within Vista. My Video camera has packed up and I am looking for a new one. WHICH WAY TO I GO....mini DV, DVRW or HD? Has anyone got ideas please? Judging by what has happened in the "stills" camera market, do you think DV (tape) will go the same way?
Of course the new PC MAY have IEE1394 connectivity, but my new camcorder will probably connect via USB 2, (or am I wrong there?)
You good people are hardened movie makers, I am a newbie by comparison, so could do with some advice.
Any help would be appreciated.
I look forwrad to your views.
Tony

[DVDDoug]

I'd say MiniDV and IEEE-1394 firewire is still the way to go. (Although, I've read that DVD cameras are starting to outsell the others. And, if you want to get into High-Definition, MiniDV is not an option.)

Hard Drive and DVD cameras record in MPEG-2, which is fine if you are simply transfering to DVD. (As you may know, DVDs are MPEG-2.) Do not get an MPEG-4 camera! The highly-compressed formats cause all kinds of trouble.

However, there a couple of issues when editing the more-compressed formats:

1 - Any "real editing" (anything other than cutting & splicing) will require the MPEG to be decoded & re-coded (decompressed & recompressed). Since MPEG is lossy compression, there is always some quality loss with each encode. (DV is lossy too, but it's not as compressed or as lossy.) And, the MPEG will need to be re-coded if you record at the "wrong" bitrate because you need to reduce the bitrate to fit the program on a DVD.

This re-coding is not always noticeable, especially at high bitrates, but it is a potential issue.

2 - Some of us have sometimes had "weird problems" when editing MPEGs. These include "lip-sync" problems and even crashing or locking-up of the Ulead programs! (See my signature/tagline below?)

These problems don't happen every time, and some users never experience them, but when it happens, it is very frustrating! (I ended-up buying a special-purpose MPEG editor.)

[ant.scott]

I appreciate your quick response. And I have to say, I'm quite relieved that mini DV is still in favour and it seems with good reason. Your feelings sync with my own. I enjoyed my first big editing job last year and VS behaved perfectly, (capturing from my now broken camera). So I think I'll be looking for a new one but in the same format.
Many thanks
Tony

[etech6355]

My Video camera has packed up and I am looking for a new one. WHICH WAY TO I GO....mini DV, DVRW or HD? Has anyone got ideas please? Judging by what has happened in the "stills" camera market, do you think DV (tape) will go the same way?

The DV cams really depend on the Make/Model & where the cam is manufactured. My first DV cam is now 9 years old. A JVC Mini-DV cam and still records & plays back very nice. It was made in JAPAN.
My other JVC cam was NOT made in Japan. Had some minor problems with it.

To cover all your bases a Sony HC3/5/7 HighDefinition cam made in JAPAN will be a great investment. It records in HighDef or Standard Def. Any HighDef video can be transferred to the computer or you can also have the cam automatically convert the HighDef video directly on the cam to Standard Definition. These are really nice cams. I don't know anyone that has been unhappy with them. They also can take nice still pictures in either 4:3 or 16:9 frame_sizes. The 16:9 stills are nice for HDTV's.
The Sony HC3 comes with a nice battery. Salesperson told me I needed to buy the big battery. Still using the original and I can record almost 2 hours on the same original battery.
I've heard rumors of a new HighDef cam that records to dual-layered dvd's, not sure, but I would stay away from the AVCHD format cams because the format is still to new and they record in a non-editable format.

I don't think that Mini DV will be out. To me it's how well you take card of your investment along with the tapes.
One fingerprint or a scratch on a Mini-dvd and it's no good.
Mini Harddisks can get corrupted, all is lost.
On a mini-dvd tape if there's a bad spot you can go past a bad spot and proceed to playback. On a mini-dvd tape that's been really abused as a last resort you can use the analog outputs and still recover video, usually.
I've never had a mini-dvd tape in that bad of condition yet.

I think the lack of mini-dv cams now is the average consumer wants to shoot & playback. So the cams that record directly in the dvd format are best geared for this. Editing in that format though can be limited as the previous post points out.

[Hugo]

Tony

I've had a Canon Optura 10 DV camera for a few years now, but as we recently bought a 42" HDTV, and we're planning a trip to England and France next month, my wife amazingly suggested we get an HD camcorder for the trip !!! (if I can detect what narcotics she's on, I'll let you all know )

After much soul searching and reading reviews etc., I bit the bullet and went for the Sony HDR-HC7 HDV camcorder.

Gotta tell you though, I bought it at B&H in NYC, and in the 3 weeks since I got it, the price has dropped $115 - isn't that always the way.

I've only played around with it a little since I got it, but so far, using it with VS10+ has been a painless experience.

Transferring the video to the 'puter is a doddle, the basic editing I've done on test shots so far has been a breeze, and creating video files etc has done exactly what it says on the tin. Even transferring the HD edited content back on to DV tape is straightforward and effective. As a bonus, it also takes 6mp still shots and uses a built-in flash.

By the end of April when we return from our trip, I'll have formed a better working relationship with the camera, and by the middle of May I will probably be writing to this board twice a day as I get in to the depths of editing the footage.

My only real *** with the camcorder itself is this ... it's a US$1200 camera, but if you want a shoulder strap, it comes as an extra for $9.95. How cheap is THAT Sony !!

cheers ... Paul

[etech6355]

Gotta tell you though, I bought it at B&H in NYC, and in the 3 weeks since I got it, the price has dropped $115 - isn't that always the way.

If you goto B&H in NYC (and others) you can get different prices on the same camcorder models. The difference is the cheaper ones do not carry a manufacturers warranty. It's a store warranty. I researched this price difference and found out many cams come into the US from 3rd party unsupported distributors. Distributors not supported by the camcorders manufacturer.
Sony doesn't back the warranty of these cams if you try to send it to an authorized Sony repair center. So if the cam fails, you have to take it back to the store you bought it from. Here is the hook, you can't return the cam to the store for repair unless you purchased the insurance on the cam from the store (we all know what these service deals are).

The company selling these lower priced units also state it somewheres in the sale or ad in very small print or as a footnote.

PS - Your wife recommends buying a high definition camcorder, Wow, I would add a PlayStation_3 on that order to playback the videos & pictures.
The PS3 is nice for playing back HD-Video & pictures on a HDTV. It's really great for pictures because you can transfer them to the PS3's internal harddisk. You can also transfer the videos but they are large and eat up the disk space.
You could show her this link.
http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic. ... 544#106544

[StewartTurner]

I'm considering upgrading my tired mini-dv JVC camcorder (the viewfinder doesn't work and I'd like to film in real widescreen. I was thinking about getting a hard disc sony model.

If you render the imported mpeg to avi after importing presumably it would maintain the quality during the dit phase. This might get round the VS problem editing mpeg too. Does this sound like a reasonable idea?

[etech6355]

You can but wouldn't this defeat the purpose of buying a cam that records directly in mpeg2?

You can also answer this yourself by taking any existing mpeg2 video you have encoded, export it to dv.avi type-1 work with it and render back to mpeg2 again. Then judge the quality on your TV. You will have some loss but the amount of loss depends on the quality of the source video.
Most people seem to use Womble or VideoRedo for heavy editing. I haven't had a problem using VS10+ editing mpeg2 video. Have you?

[StewartTurner]

I don't know to be honest!
I do get VS10+ crashing from time to time, and the few projects I have worked on since I upgraded to 10+ have had some mpeg content but I haven't linked the two for certain. I don't generally re-render after editing and rendering once, and I make sure that I sue smart render which should preserve quality. I would prefer to work in mpeg due to the smaller size - I use a laptop with 60GB hard disk and prefer to keep the current source files on it to prevent carrying too much stuff around.

I think I'll get the Sony DCR-SR52E at about £380. I've got a couple of questions to ask before I commit but I'll start another thread for that.

Stewart

[sjj1805]

I'm considering upgrading my tired mini-dv JVC camcorder (the viewfinder doesn't work and I'd like to film in real widescreen. I was thinking about getting a hard disc sony model.

If you render the imported mpeg to avi after importing presumably it would maintain the quality during the dit phase. This might get round the VS problem editing mpeg too. Does this sound like a reasonable idea?

Alas no. Whilst it may appear to retain its quality rendering to DV(avi) format you will lose quality when you later go the other way and return it to MPEG2 format.

[thad]

[slight hijack]

My Video camera has packed up and I am looking for a new one.

Tony, what's wrong with your camera? If the CCD failed (typically a black viewfinder that will record audio, but no video), you may be able to get it repaired at no charge, regardless of warranty status.

Here's a few links.

http://www.css.ap.sony.com/consumer/tem ... x?Id=45536

http://www.imaging-resource.com/badccds.html

Even if it's not a Sony camera, check the list of cameras that Sony makes CCDs for. I had my Sony HC30 repaired (with free shipping both ways) 3 years after the warranty expired, in a total of 10 days.

[/hijack]

Thad

[ant.scott]

Hi Thad!
Thanks for this last post, I'll follow it up. The offending kit is a JVC about 5 yrs old, so I will look around starting with your suggested links. I think I will get a replacement, though, and will go for a Sony mini dv for now. There are still issues with HD and DVD's from what I have read here and elsewhere. I guess tape will disappear in the end.
Thanks for all the advice Folks.
Tony

[daniel]

I guess tape will disappear in the end.

Nobody will challenge that; they will surely disappear when flash memory packs (SD, MMC, anything) will get us 32GB with twice the price of a DV cassette (giving close to the standard 1-hour with reasonable HD).

Then price will be competitive considering the ease of direct access, weight, size and mechanical advantages (no clogging, no twisted tapes, wider temperature range, less sensitivity to shocks and drops).

We get close, but not today: since a consumer camera usually lasts 5 years tops (read again: usually), you may as well, now, buy a miniDV tape camera, except as said if you need some form of HD video.

Then go solid-state for the next. (hey it's only an opinion, no need to shoot...)

[etech6355]

Anyone ever use these longer recording DV Tapes?
Been thinking of trying one of them.

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSH ... pt=cameras

[Robert C. Baker, Jr.]

Yes, I have used several of the 80-minute Panasonic DVC's in a Panasonic camcorder. Upon transporting there was at least one
frame "freeze" on each transported AVI (DV) during the playback
of a video of some length. So I plan to return to 60-minute DVC's
which have never given me a problem. The "freezed" or "paused"
scenes have self-restarted each time so I did not bother to cut them
out. I believe either my cam or the tape was at fault. possibly it is
the thinness of the 80-minute tape versus the 60-minute tape.
Thinness was one reason why we were advised not to use the
120-minute audio cassette in the "old days".

Regards,

Bob