Newbie Help on Audio-Video Synch Problem

[Chapgary]

Recently I purchased VS10 to transfer some Mini-DV camcorder tapes and some old VHS tapes to NTSC DVD format. I’m getting 1/4 – 1/2 second video lagging behind the audio cropping up on DVD’s or MPEG files made from single 95 minute captures from VHS tapes. The audio and video are in synch at the start, but slowly increase over time. By about 45 minutes it is noticeable, and by 90 minutes it is very obvious. This has me wondering what different setting I could use in VS10 to eliminate it. I’ve read all I could on this Forum on synch issues and am still stumped. Any comments would be appreciated.

The problem occurred in 2 of 2 VHS tapes I’ve worked on. Each capture was from 90 - 95 minute VHS long tapes using the pass-through function on Sony camcorder to feed DV input via Firewire cable into PC. The DV signal was 16 bit audio and each capture resulted in a single 21GB AVI file in DV- type 1 format (audio and video together).

Both these virgin AVI files played to the end very well with no synch issues at all. So I presume the capture was good. But when I made a DVD of them there was a ¼ to ½ second video delay at the end of the DVD. After reading all I could on the Forum on synch issues, I repeated the process, making an MPEG file as a separate step before creating the DVD files, and using all the recommended Forum settings I could see.

Using the same virgin AVI file I loaded it into New Project, using Edit, Insert Video. No editing of any kind was done on the AVI file. Then going directly to Share, Create Video File, it created an MPEG file. VS10 settings for this MPEG file creation were changed to “Custom” and:

Smart rendering OFF
Audio& Video
29.97 frames/sec
Lower field first
720 x 480, 4:3 aspect
MPEG-2 media format
70% Quality
Variable video data rate @ 6000 kbps
MPEG-2 media format, 48,000, and 256 kbps

Viewing the MPEG files resulted in the same ¼ to ½ second delay by the end of the 90 minutes.

As an independent check, I DL’d the trial version of TMPGEnc 2.5 and rendered the same AVI files to MPEG files using the same settings as for VS10. The resulting MPEG files had no synch problems at all. ????

I was wondering if VS10 would introduce the synch problem from a MPEG file source instead of an AVI file. So I re-rendering the TMPGEnc generated MPEG file using VS10, unchecking the box “Do not convert Compliant MPEG Files” so it would re-render it. There was no synch problem at all in the resulting MPEG files.

Seems to be a problem occurring when VS10 renders from AVI files.

I’ve not had much experience with any video conversion software and VS10 was my choice based on reviews. So I could be needing to “tweak” some setting further that I’ve missed. Anyone have any ideas?

[Ron P.]

Welcome to the forums Chapgary,

This is certainly a brand new twist on things.. Most, if not all, the sync problems have came from the inverse, trying to edit MPEG files. What audio codec are you using when creating a video file? You should be using either LPCM (uncompressed, which takes up more space) or Dolby digital (either AC-3 or 5.1). The MPEG audio layer is not in the NTSC DVD specs.

Most of the time when I'm creating a video file from DV, I make sure the Do not Convert... box checked, and use SmartRender. I also try working with smaller chunks of video (just my way of working though).

[Chapgary]

Videoman,

Thank you for your reply. Hah, hah! Your questions make my newbie ignorance unable to be hidden any more! I’m not real sure of this stuff. Now I have a freeware program called “GSpot” that tells me what codecs were used (I think). If I understand right, I think you mean what is the audio codec name in the intermediate MPEG file that was created by VS10 from the AVI file. GSpot reports the audio Codec as “MPEG-1 Layer 2” and says “Codec Installed”, then for info has “0xc0:48000Hz 256 kb/s total (2 chnls)”

On the final DVD files that were created from this intermediate MPEG file, GSpot reports the audio codec as “AC3’ and says “Codec Installed”, then for info has “0xc0:48000Hz 256 kb/s total (2 chnls)”. I did use NTSC DVD and Digital Dolby to make the DVD files, but the synch problem was already there in the intermediate MPEG file.

It looks like you are suggesting that I not choose MPEG-2 as media type when creating the intermediate file in the Video Save Options (before making the NTSC DVD files) as this leads to a non-NTSC standard default MPEG audio with no other audio option. Instead I should use NTSC DVD media type which allows a choice of LPCM audio or Dolby Digital audio. And use Smart Render and check the “Do Not Convert…” box.

Hmm… You know, I tried that already in my testing here. Actually the first DVD I made created ready to burn DVD files direct from the AVI file using NTSC DVD and Dolby Digital audio as settings. Smart Rendering would have been on since I didn’t even know about it then. That DVD had a VERY big synch problem that was at least 1 second audio delay at the end of the 90 minutes. That is what got me into all this testing. Otherwise I would have just gone on to more capturing from the rest of our home movie VHS tapes.

So I read on this (great!) Forum that it was asking VS10 to do a lot to render and create DVD files all at the same time and it would be better to create an intermediate MPEG or NTSC DVD file first, before making the final DVD files as a separate step. That is what I did using NTSC DVD and Dolby Digital audio as the settings choice. The video synch delay in this intermediate NTSC DVD file was reduced to 1/4 to1/2 second after 90 minutes, but still very much there. So I tried it again, creating another intermediate file from the virgin AVI file using MPEG-2 media type and with MPEG-1 Layer 2 audio settings to see if that mattered. The synch problem was still there unchanged at 1/4 to1/2 second.

I have not tried the NTSC DVD media type with LPCM audio option yet, so I could try that with Smart Rendering on. If that doesn’t work, I guess I’ll have to just give up and capture AVI files of about 20 minutes max length as you suggest so the synch issue is not obvious.

I’d rather edit in AVI files to avoid generating any additional synch problems for sure. But I was just wondering why I was having a synch problem with VS10, but not with TMPGEnc 2.5, when rendering long files from a good AVI file. Maybe nobody else notices it as they all have short clips! <grin>

Thanks again for your help! - Gary

[Ron P.]

You certainly may edit DV (avi), but you need to use MPEG-2 for the video file type (Share>Create Video File), in fact you must to create a DVD. However the audio portion, or audio codec, needs to be either LPCM or Dolby Digital. Now that is dependent on if you reside in an NTSC or PAL area.
Where on this marble are you? PAL is used in UK, Australia... where NTSC is North America, Taiwan...). I'm assuming since the Frame Size (720 x 480) reflect that for NTSC and not PAL (720 x 576).

If you are located in a PAL area, then the MPEG audio Layer-2 is acceptable. In fact PAL can use about any audio (MPEG, Dolby and LPCM).

Just a work-flow rundown:

• Captured video (DV)
• Made sure your Project Properties were the same as your video
• Edited (still DV)
• Created a video file (Share>Create Video File), that should be MPEG-2 DVD Compliant.
• Create DVD---Start new project, to directly to Share>Create Disk. Insert the MPEG-2 DVD compliant video files that you just created. Then setup your Project Properties (Gear Icon, lower left).
• Build Menus, etc..
• Prepare to burn - either Disk, Folders (Video_TS/Audio_TS), or ISO, Checking.."Do not Convert Compliant MPEG Files" is Checked and Treat MPEG audio as Non-DVD Compliant.
• Burn

That's an abbreviated version..Anyway using this process, there should not be any audio/video slipping out of sync. You didn't mention if you had the Treat MPEG Audo as Non-DVD Compliant checked or not. That may be what is throwing them out of sync. If not try checking it, and Burn to your HDD (Create DVD Folders). This way you don't waste a DVD if it doesn't work.

[Chapgary]

Videoman,

Canada is my home, hence NTSC country. Looks like if nothing else this problem has allowed me to learn the best work flow and settings to make a DVD. I had been following the recommended work flow below in VS10 for all of my latest tests:

1) Capture video as DV in a AVI Type 1 file. (no synch problem in this file – ever!)
2) No editing of any kind done.
3) Create video file (Share>Create Video File) with various settings for media type and audio type (all results have a video delay slowly creeping in until after 90 minutes it is 1/4 -1/2 seconds).

In all tests I did not proceed with burning the DVD folder files (except for the first 2 times when I actually discovered the problem watching the first DVD). There was no point making DVD folders (Create Disk) after that since the video file (Share>Create Video File) already had acquired the synch problem. So going to the next work flow step to create the DVD file folders using :Create Disk”, and checking the boxes “Treat MPEG Audio as Non-DVD Compliant” and "Do not Convert Compliant MPEG Files” could not eliminate a synch problem already existing in the video file it uses as source.

Last night I tried creating a video file (Share>Create Video File) with settings NTSC DVD video media and LPCM audio (Smart Rendering “On”), but still got the same ½ second synch problem after 90 minutes.

My preferred settings from Day 1 were for making a video file with NTSC DVD video media type and Dolby Digital audio. I won’t continue with future projects using the non-DVD standard settings. Actually, the only reason I got offbeat and decided to try and create (Share>Create Video File) a non-DVD standard video file of MPEG-2 media type with MPEG – 1 Layer 2 audio was that it was the only output I could get the trial version of TMPGEnc to perform and I wanted to compare a TMPGEnc rendered video file with a VS10 rendered video file. All the VS10 created video files I made with various video media type and audio settings had the synch problem while the TEMPGEnc video file had no synch issue. So far I guess I have to conclude it is a problem introduced by VS10 when rendering very long AVI files. Probably not noticed by others users as their AVI capture files are not long enough.

Looks like my only option now is to keep AVI capture files to about 20 minutes length so the synch problem is not noticeable. I’ll stick with VS10 as I like it for all the rest of what it does, and it runs smoothly on my PC with no crashes. If I ever see a solution, I’ll post it back here for sure. Maybe VS11 will fix it!

Thanks again for you input. Much appreciated! - Gary

[sjj1805]

A few links for you

1. audio/video synchronisation issues
2. VS & MSP: Fix for Out of Synch Audio/Video
3. Suggested workflow by sjj1805 for video creation
4. From camcorder to DVD with VideoStudio

[Ken Berry]

Probably not noticed by others users as their AVI capture files are not long enough.

I can't leave this without a comment. A lot of us here render quite long DV/AVIs into mpeg-2s without any sync problems. In my case, they can be nearly an hour long. So it's not a matter of us not noticing!!!

That being said, I follow the same work flow as you do and the mpeg-2 properties you give in your first post look fine. So I have no idea why you are consistently getting this error.

[sjj1805]

Recently I purchased VS10 to transfer some Mini-DV camcorder tapes and some old VHS tapes to NTSC DVD format. .............
The problem occurred in 2 of 2 VHS tapes I've worked on. Each capture was from 90 - 95 minute VHS long tapes using the pass-through function on Sony camcorder to feed DV input via Firewire cable into PC. The DV signal was 16 bit audio and each capture resulted in a single 21GB AVI file in DV- type 1 format (audio and video together). .........

I suspect that the problem is nothing to do with your hardware or your settings. The problem is to do with the Old VHS tapes. They may play correctly in your VHS player but in fact they are probably worn, stretched, dirty or have some other issue.

When I transferred my collection of VHS to DVD plus those of my friends and relatives - Here I am talking several hundred over several months. The majority of the tapes transferred well and gave pleasing results.

Using exactly the same equipment and settings some of the tapes refused t play ball and I had all manner of issues with them, Audio/Video Synch or other faults. Some tapes I was able to salvage with various work rounds including the link I gave earlier 'Fix for out of synch Audio/Video.'

Some tapes though simply got confined to the dustbin.

[MrA]

His DVD Burner burped.

[Noco2ev]

I have noticed this too, I now save in AVI format, huge file size with no compression. works great.
Gary

[Chapgary]

To SJJ1805, Ken Berry, and Noco2ev,

I’ve been doing a bit more testing from all your posts, hence the delay.

It is good to know from Ken Berry that others can render an AVI file with no problem. Thanks Ken. This caused me to do a test creating an AVI video file with a “clean” PC having all my startup items like anti-virus removed via MSconfig’s System Configuration Utility. No improvement in results though. Rats!

Then, as Noco2ev suggested, I tried just saving the virgin AVI file as an AVI file with project settings (Share>Create Video File). The idea there was that maybe VS10 would “renew” the audio/video links in the original AVI, without being asked to render to a different format. However, there was no improvement. I would have liked to try saving it with “None” as compression as Noco2ev suggested fixed the problem for him, but my hard drive space was limiting so that possibility is out for me. Thanks Noco2ev for the suggestion.

The comment from SJJ1805 prompted further testing and using the workaround suggested “Fix for Out of Synch Audio/Video”, I was able to satisfactorily achieve pretty close to audio/video synch when re-rendering an MPEG file that went out of synch during the initial rendering. This was by altering the playback speed of the video file. It took a lot of trials, but gave a much improved result. It is comforting to know that it is possible to correct this problem using a facility built into VS10! Thanks to SJJ1805.

However, it was not without a big learning curve when using the Playback Speed options box. Many of the trials were trying to get that Playback Speed options box to input correctly. Despite reference to another posting by you SJJ1805, I was not able to even make it work at all. Maybe my method, but it is not at all friendly in execution. Accepting new inputted values did not change the length of the video file shown in the timeline at bottom of VS10, nor change the audio/video synch upon rendering. What DID work though, was using the alternate method described within the Playback Speed options box. Not using the Playback speed box at all, and just clicking on the video clip, then holding down the “SHIFT” key while click and dragging the end of the video file to a new end time DID work. The video and audio files were then showing at different lengths within VS10. When trying this using the Playback Speed options box they were not shown different. Another confusing thing was that both the Playback Speed options box and the project timeline showed “minutes” only being 30 seconds long. Weird! I think this is an area of improvement that could be worked on for VS11.

Interestingly, to get the audio and video in synch with my traditional ½ second video delay, I needed to SHORTEN the video file by ½ second. Go figure. ??? With the video clip showing ½ second shorter than the audio clip in VS10, the rendered file was quite close to synch.

SJJ1805, your comments on the hundred odd tapes you processed was very interesting. I too cannot see any hardware problems with my PC that could be causing this problem. I tend to agree that the problem may be caused by the quality of the VHS tape that is not corrected by capturing using the “pass-through” mode on the camcorder. I haven’t tested this out using a 1 hour long mini-DV tape of home movies that was made on the same DV camcorder. I suspect it will be fine with no problem. The added conversion from analog VHS may be the problem. Not sure if using a dedicated capture card would be any better. Perhaps when an old VHS tape is converted it does not produce an AVI file that has a strong enough” framework” or “structure” and has “gaps” or something such that the ties between audio and video are weaker in areas. So even though it is synch as an AVI file it is “weakly” linked. Just a layman’s analogy. I must say though that I do find it interesting that TMPGEnc had no problems with this at all. So the quality of the rendering software is also a factor.

For me, I have maybe 10 old VHS tapes, about 20 HI-8 analog camcorder tapes, and about 4 newer mini-DV tapes. I was starting with the oldest ones, VHS, first as I was most concerned by them. The problem I’m seeing may not be a factor in my future project conversions as I probably will make about 50 shorter AVI files from each of these raw tapes as I slowly edit my way though them and clean them up for presentation on DVD, adding titles etc. None of the AVI files will be long enough for the synch problem to be noticeable. The whole reason I got into this posting was I just blasted a couple of VHS tapes across in one big AVI file each, simply to see it would work. Saw a problem and wondered if it was just a setting problem. From all your posts, there were no obvious things I was doing wrong, and SJJ1805 you have seen the same problem and attribute it to source quality, that is good enough input for me.

So this is all I can contribute here. Thanks again to all of you for your input. - Gary

[Bruce5m]

I don't know if this helps, but I was experiencing a problem with audio Synch after rendering to MPEG2. The audio synch problem was not evident when playing the MPEG2 in Windows Media Player. But, if I wrote the file onto a using DVD Workshop, I would get a significant audio synch problem.

I cleared the problem up by setting Smart Render to OFF. It seemed that the smart rendering process introduces errors in the finished file.

Cheers.

Videoman,

Last night I tried creating a video file (Share>Create Video File) with settings NTSC DVD video media and LPCM audio (Smart Rendering n?, but still got the same ?second synch problem after 90 minutes.

[sjj1805]

Chapgary
Thanks for the feeback.