Sticky user recommendations and video rendering

[jwalk2c]

Dear Friends,
I have been using VS10 now for about 3 weeks. Have put in a lot of hours so far. My bottom side has not been this sore in a long time.+:)
This is my first experience with any type of editing.and I am really,really enjoying this.
My orginal goal was to transfer about 100 hours of SVHS and HI8 that I have taken over he past 18 years.
I am using a Canopus ADVC300 to convert analogue to digital. It has saved me a lot of problems.
Everything is working great as far as hardware and software goes.
If you will indulge me in this long post I will try to explain
what I have learned so far..
I can separate the different events that may be on the the raw file from the transfer.
I then trim out the scrap frames, try to polish up the remaining files by adding crossfades to each scene change that I can detect visually.
This is a long process for me but I am happy with the results..
I then have been able to put these events on dvd's.

I try to read all I can in the forum before I post a question.
Tonight I started noticing some post that are intended to be guidelines for using VS
And more and more I am seeing discussion about loss of quality of digital media each time you render it.
I understand the fact that different types of compression can degrade digital files. But,
Because I like working with physical files rather than a vsp.file .I am heartbroken.
Just when I was starting to catch on and expecting a offer from Disney any day ,LOL
Suddenly the rug is pulled out from under me.
Again I ask you for you patience and your valuable time reading this long winded post.
Please allow me to explain my workflow which I am using.

1.I capture in DV-AVI format that was taught to me in the VS10 Tutorial as being "lossless"'

2.I then use multitrim and render each event as a physical file.
I refer to event as IE: Birthday party, Learning to walk,maybe a ball game, etc. usually 4 or 5 events per tape.

3.I then drag a event file to time line, cut out the really bad scenes like when camera is on and pointing at ground, lens cap on during recording etc.
Then I may render that changed file to a physical file.

4..I then may have to do a muilty trim again to visually find the scene changes and put crossfades in each.
This makes the video look so much better and this was encouraged in the Tutorial.

5.I then use Share and create video file in DV.
I noticed that process changes properties of Video compression from DV Video Encoder type 1 to type 2 , and increases the file size.

6.When I create disk I use Two Pass conversion

This workflow really takes all of my concentration and it seems I cannot follow it excactly each time. IE sometimes I have to use the sizzors, sometimes in and out bars,
I may have to use "save trimmed video" etc,
I mention this because I was going to post a question about good workflow habits for working with large files.
Now I have another and more important question about lossing video guality.
I have been experimenting and I do not know if this proves anything or not, but I have taken a file, rendered it over and over (without editing it of course) and the file size always remains the same.
Considering that when I converted from DV type 1 to the better compression DV type 2 the file size increased , I am confused.

If someone could please elaborate on a good workflow for the basics, what I would consider the basics to be are:
Take a raw video, cut out the bad parts, add transitions between the scene changes,
and burn to dvd.
I want to concentrate on these steps first.
Thanks so much for all your time you people give to this board.
Sincerely,
jwalk2c

[sjj1805]

jwalk2c
Welcome to our forum.
The suggested work flow is the second post here:
http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic. ... 1835#91835.

You may be interested in my Description of a project file

For further hints and suggestions please view:
From camcorder to DVD

[GeorgeW]

@jwalk2c

I think your current workflow is fine. In fact, I often use the same workflow (except I use a different mpeg encoding process for when it is time for the DVD Authoring). The one thing it does require is Hard Drive space - so I am assuming you have plenty of storage.

If I read your post correctly, you take a large dv .avi capture (old tape captured with Canopus ADVC300), and split it into smaller event-related dv .avi's. You then work on each of the smaller event-related dv .avi's, and generate a "final" dv .avi for each event.

If you have multiple hard drives, I would try to go to separate drives during each of these steps (it can help speed up the process -- assuming smartrender will work for most of the timeline). For instance, Capture to Drive-1, make smaller event-related dv .avi's to Drive-2. Then make "final" or "cleanup" dv .avi back to Drive-1 (the idea is going from one drive to the other will help speed up that step of the "rendering" when alot of the timeline is being "smartrendered").

You will need to keep up on your "house cleaning" (i.e. get rid of redundant dv .avi's if you no longer need them). Otherwise you will run out of hard drive space alot sooner (luckily they are really inexpensive nowadays -- at least compared to just a few years ago).

As to your question on the DV Type-2 being larger than DV Type-1, that is normal as the Type-2 file basically doubles the audio space (redundant audio stream in the DV Type-2 file). But the video should be fine

NOTE: if you are seeing something out of the ordinary for increased size (DV Type-2 vs. DV Type-1), that would be a different story

Regards,
George

[jwalk2c]

Thank You George, and yes I am doing the workflow process just as you
were able to understand from my poor english.
My hat is of to anyone who can read my writing and understand what I am trying to say.
If I understand what you are saying then there is no loss of video quality, (sample rate, or whaterver the term is) by constantly cutting and editing?
That is my main concern.

I have not tried smart rendering?
Is that included in VS10 Plus?

I will take your advice to heart once I add multiple drives.
I thank you for this guideline.
I can relate already to the housecleaning part.
Wow! It gets so confusing with so many files.

You mentioned you use a different encoding at time for dvd authoring?
May I ask what it is?

Thanks Again.
jwalk2c

[jwalk2c]

Thank You Steve J.
I complement you on your picture.
You look like a very friendly person.
jwalk2c

[jwalk2c]

Dear Steve J
I just clicked on the the link you provided.
Please read below the part about rendering it once to avoid loss quality.

[qoute]:
Method 1 which is my preferred method, is to create a brand new video file on your hard drive with all of those edits processed. It is no longer a project file it is now a standalone and playable video.
When you do this - you don't want to render it again - we are aiming to render ONCE to avoid loss of quality and any other side issues such as audio/video synchronisation. Our target device will be a DVD disc playable in a standalone DVD player and so we need to render to MPEG2
[end qoute]

Does this mean if I go back to a file that I already did worked on,
and then again and crossfades to scene changes and futher polish up file.
Then am I not doing excactly what you are warning against?
Please let me use a short clip as a example I am working on as we speak.
Here are the propertes of file:

Microsoft AVI files-Open DML
size 309,126KB
f/rate 29.970
data rate 3699.61 kbps

video
compression DV Encodr Type 2
attributes 24 bits,720x480 4:3
total frames 2,503

audio
compression PCM
48,000 khz 16 bit stero
4,008,808 samples

Now I just dragged this clip to time line ,
Dragged the pointer over a bit hit the sizzors tool.
I then choose "saved trimed video"
It is rendering now a physical file.
I then select the other part and render it.
I now have 3 physical files instead of one.

To avoid loss of quality will I have to refrain from this technique
and learn the art of using the vts method ?
I do understand that a vts file is; just a set of instructions, much like a playlist you would create in any music player.
I have always liked working with physical files, but if it is a better
habit to work with vts files to avoid quality loss I will change.


Sincerley
jwalk2c

.

[sjj1805]

Like many things in life you can do things in a number of different ways and you will soon adopt a work flow that you find comfortable to work with.

To prevent any possible loss in quality I have found from my experience and also by reading the views of several other video editors that the aim is to render the least number of times preferably once.

So here is what can be done to achieve this.
Firstly you have lets say a hours worth of video in your camcorder and you transfer it to your hard drive in DV (avi) format using an IEEE1394 (firewire) cable. You have an exact copy on your hard drive of what is on your camcorder. No loss of quality.

Lets call this Movie A.

Now you decide that you wish to create two movies from that same Movie A.
One is a main movie where you have simply cut out the unwanted bits.
This movie may last some 45 minutes. We will call this Movie B.
Once you have completed your editing and are ready to create a DVD, you then render Movie B to MPEG2 format and then enter the authoring stage. You have only rendered Movie B once.

The second movie is going to be a short preview movie of Movie B
Like the trailers of the Hollywood films.
We are going to call this Movie C.

To create Movie C you must again return to Movie A as your source.
This way when you create Movie C it will have only been rendered Once.

Hope that makes sense so far.

Just before you rendered Movie B you save a VideoStudio Project file - perhaps you called it Project B.

Just before you rendered Movie C you save another VideoStudio project file - perhaps you called it Project C.

Providing you leave the original source material untouched (Movie A)
you can re-open your VideoStudio Project file and make further adjustments or edits.

So you opened up project B and made a few more cuts, this time you create another Movie B to replace the one you made earlier.
In other words it has still only been rendered once.

[jwalk2c]

Thanks Steve,

I do capture in DV avi format.
And I think I am begining to understand your reason for rendering only once. Though I am not sure if you consider chosing to if "save trimed video" as a rendering and subject to quality loss.
If this is the case then I am going to follow your advice and learn to work with vsp project files.
Here is my first vsp project and it has been tough.
Please allow me to explain.

Clip A is my source file. It is about 42 min. long and roughly 9 gb's.
I used multi trim to make vsp files of 6 events from source A.
Now I want to start editing clip B.
I first want to cut out about 7 frames in middle of clip that are black.
I can trim and delete the black frames but now I have clip B and clip C on my time line.
I save them to a vsp file with a name and I can reopen it and indeed when I preview project the black frames are gone.
But now I have a project file and I cannot use split by scene function because I have to be on clip to do that.
If I try create a thumbnail of vsp file by draging it from the time line to library I have to drag both thumbnails to get my project.
Maybe to use split by scene I will have to treat the project as 2 clips.
That ideal just occured to me and I am trying it now.
But I am getting a message that I have to reset mark in and mark out to default position.
When I do that I am back in clip mode and working on the entire clip A.
Initially I did not like the ideal of working with vsp files but since I have used them I want to learn and prefer that method.
But sadly I am not able to use split by scene .
I did learn that upon closing project if I anser yes to "save changes to vsp. file" that I can not open that file again.
So before I close vsp project I manually "save as" and overwrite vsp project file.
Thanks for all your help.
jwalk2c

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi

First of all when you look at the timeline, viewing a clip you are looking at a virtual clip.
Your source file ¡¥A¡¦ is still a virtual clip representing the whole file on the hard drive.

Split by Scene

You can only use split by scene on full clips.
Any clip being cut, or reduced in length will not allow split by scene.
This is why you get the ¡¥reset mark in and mark out¡¦ message.

Now I understand why you are cutting the file ¡¥A¡¦ into 6 and rendering each to individual files. This should allow Split by Scene.

There are several options you can take, Its just a learning curve, I do not want to confuse the issue. But here are two options.

1:-
Consider capturing to separate events. Each event will have its own file.
You will have to watch during capture.
No need to use the save trimmed video.
Split by scene will work on each event.

2:-
Create a new video library page.
Insert the source file ¡¥A¡¦
Use split by scene here.
Drag the relevant virtual clips to the timeline
You could create 6 separate projects one for each event.

As I say there is many editing options, and I am sure we all have our preferences.

Hope this Helps

Trevor

[jchunter]

I can only add that you should not become dependent on automatic scene splitters because they are only able to detect a complete scene change and they into rarely make the right choices how much of a scene will be interesting to the audience.

Most of my recorded video is already time-sequenced and, thus, is in the natural flow of events. I purposely keep most recorded scene clips short (3-5 seconds is about right to keep the attention of most viewers and 8 - 12 seconds for a spectacular scenic pan). So I have never found a use for scene splitters.

Bottom line: Don't distort your workflow just so you can use automatic scene splitters. For best edited video, you have to be the intelligent scene-splitter.

[GeorgeW]

Though I am not sure if you consider chosing to if "save trimed video" as a rendering and subject to quality loss.
If this is the case then I am going to follow your advice and learn to work with vsp project files.

That type of "rendering" is different, so it shouldn't be subject to "quality loss" (because smartrendering should be in effect). Does it create the video very "quickly", or do you think it is actually rendering the video (it would take much longer than a smartrender).

Regards,
George

[jwalk2c]

You people are great.

Thanks trevor andrew.
I did not think of the clip on time line as a virtual clip. Thanks for pointing that out.
But I think you may have misunderstood what I am trying to do and my problem.
I have only been working with VS for a few weeks or so. No prior experience with any type of editing.
I did not like working with vsp.files because they reminded me of song list used in music players.
So I was doing excactly as you said.
I was capturing a complete SVHS two hour tape, then cut and render each to a physical file on my hard drive .
I still had my orginal source file and also the other newly created physical files
I then edited each indivdual files.
Mostly cutting out the bad parts and adding transistions between changes.
And each time I closed the file I would use "save as trimmed video" so as to either open it again and do more editing or if I was happy with clip I would later
create a video file in "share" or I may render it to a disk in "share"...
But then I was reading about loss of video quality each time you render a file.
So yesterday was my first attmept at working with vsp. files.
And my frustration was that when I cut a clip in a vsp project, I was still treating it as if it were one virtual clip,
while now I understand it has to be treated as individule virtual clips.
I think you suggestion of capturing as separtate events is a very good ideal.
That would solve one of my problems before I even start a project.

Thanks jchunter
That is good advice. I am a newbie and I have not even tried "scene spliitter yet " but I thought I would give it a try.
I like your advice of keeping scene changes short.
My editing goal right now is to add transistion between the pause and record points during same event, like when your recording and you pause for a few seconds or so and then you start recording the same subject again.
I was surprised how good it looks to add a transistion. And I am only using crossfades.

Thanks GeorgeW . The reason I mentioned "save trimed video"
is because in the past I had been doing this and not aware that it could cause loss ofvideo quality. Or maybe I am not understanding the difference between "save trimmed video" and rendering.
I know that when I render it in "share " I am changing it from a dv-avi file to a mpeg 2 and I can see how that would cause a loss.
And yes when I choose "save trimmed file" it is creating a new physical file. Speed of course is dependent on size of file. But unless it is really shortit is not nearly as fast as when you change a vsp file.
This was the reason I was changing my process to using vsp. files.
To avoid the loss of video quality.
Is smart rendering in effect by default with vs10plus?

[GeorgeW]

Thanks GeorgeW . The reason I mentioned "save trimed video"
is because in the past I had been doing this and not aware that it could cause loss ofvideo quality. Or maybe I am not understanding the difference between "save trimmed video" and rendering.
I know that when I render it in "share " I am changing it from a dv-avi file to a mpeg 2 and I can see how that would cause a loss.
And yes when I choose "save trimmed file" it is creating a new physical file. Speed of course is dependent on size of file. But unless it is really shortit is not nearly as fast as when you change a vsp file.
This was the reason I was changing my process to using vsp. files.
To avoid the loss of video quality.
Is smart rendering in effect by default with vs10plus?

I believe the "Saved trimmed" is using SmartRender (or not re-rendering during the save). It will not be as fast as updating a project file -- because it is creating a separate physical video file. But it will require more hard drive space as each "save trimmed" generates a new file.

Regards,
George

[jwalk2c]

Thanks to all of you I think have learned edit vsp. files.
Here is the method I am using.
I create a folder for each tape I have captured.
In it is the raw captured file in dv-avi format.
Then as I cut it in to individual events with multi-trim and save each in the same folder as a vsp. file named by what event it is.
Paying strict attention to whether I am in the clip mode or project mode
while trying to edit is critical I have learned
Now I can re-open each vsp. file as many time as I choose ,edit and choose "save as" and simply let it overwrite the vsp.file.
And now I am begining to see why there is a time line view and a story line view and the zoom slider.
Please; I welcome any suggestions this workflow .
I have another question that maybe I should post as a new topic but the answer my be short.
The method I used to cut the raw file up into individual events was to use multi trim by mark in and mark out.
I had to waste a portion of a frame between each mark out and each mark in. I do not know if you can click mark out and then imeditlay
click mark in to separate events.
That was simple enough but once you choose ok what is next step?
It seems the file appears on the timeline with the cuts as thumbnails.
What I did then was drag each thumbnail up into the library.
Then I chose "new project" and inserted the thumnails back into time line one at a time and that is when I saved each thumbnail as a vsp. file.
Is this how it is done?
Thanks
jwalk2c

[sjj1805]

You will get a few more hints and tips at the following:

VideoStudio Demo & Training Videos

VideoStudio Editing Phase