Newbie needs some answers

[David Anderson]

I downloaded the trial version of VideoStudio 10 Plus late last night and need a little bit of guidance on the capabilities of this product. I am a newbie to video editing. My objective is to create a compilation of selected clips from an unencrypted commercial DVD that I own. Ideally, I want the following,

1. The video quality in the compilation DVD to be identical to that of the original for all unmodified frames (I only plan a minor level of editing to create dissolve transitions between clips). I believe that this is sometimes referred to as 'smart rendering'. I found a reference in the User Manual to SmartRender technology but the description seemed to focus on previewing movies rather than the final production stage.

2. All the original multi-language subtitles of the original to be preserved in the copy. The User Guide only seems to address creating new subtitles. I found an earlier thread on this forum that made it seem unlikely that original subtitles can be preserved but I didn't understand all the details in that thread so am raising the question again for the sake of clarity.

3. The ability to retain the original 5.1 soundtrack when required. This is of less importance because stereo will often be sufficient for my purposes. There are obviously some surround sound capabilities in the product but it is unclear to me whether these can be imported from an existing DVD.

If VideoStudio can't do these things then is there another video editor that can?

[Ken Berry]

1. SmartRender is also used during the recoding process. It will certainly speed it up considerably, and from a quality point of view, only the edit points are actually recoded. If you are maintaining the same quality as the original, you should not notice any change in quality at these points.

2. I don't think VS can handle multiple sub-titles (or indeed any 'real' subtitles) or indeed other language tracks. Certainly not inserting new ones, but from your own perspective, dealing with existing embedded ones.

I have had to use specialised programs such as Video ReDo for this. (I think other specialised mpeg editors like Womble may also do this, but you would need to check.) Once having processed it in ReDo, however, I do not re-insert the resulting file back into the VS timeline. In those cases, I have burned a DVD using such files in Nero and have retained the original sub-titles. (The one time I did try it, I somehow ended up with Turkish or Hungarian or something that sounded like them, as the sole and unchangeable language track!!)

I have not tried it by simply opening the VS burning module and inserting the ReDo files directly into it, then burning. So I cannot comment on what VS might do with such files. But I would hazard the guess that since the VS burning module is only, after all, a standard burning program, and the ReDo files are still DVD-compliant, then making sure 'Do not convert compliant mpeg files' is ticked in the Options cogwheel icon of the VS burning module should mean that the DVD should be burned with the embedded sub-titles/foreign language tracks. However, users who have actually tried this with VS may want to jump in here.

3. The trial version of VS10+ does not, as far as I am aware, contain the Dolby 5.1 codec for licensing reasons imposed by Dolby. That being said, the full version will both accept incoming 5.1 audio. And not change it if your output DVD properties have it selected as the audio format.

[David Anderson]

Ken,
Thanks for the help. It's much appreciated.

1. You say "If you are maintaining the same quality as the original". That is certainly my intention. Are there any VS settings I need to be aware of in order to achieve this?

2. I didn't totally follow your explanation of subtitles. Are programs like ReDo or Womble relevant to my specific requirement for retention of existing subtitles or are they only relevant if you want to create new subtitles? Are the original subtitles embedded in the VOB files on the DVD? Does VS strip out such data?

[Ken Berry]

1. When you capture an mpeg-2 file, it will have certain properties (you will see them by right clicking on the file in VS and selecting Properties). When you insert them in the timeline, VS will ask you if you want your project properties to match the file's properties. (make sure you have 'Show message when inserting first video clip into timeline' ticked in File > Preferences > General.) That will maintain the quality and ensure your output file uses exactly the same properties as the original (barring the minor -- and probably undetectable to the naked eye -- loss of quality that occurs in any mpeg conversion).

2. ReDo will retain original sub-titles and foreign language tracks and output them as well. I am not sure what Womble does as I do not use it. Someone who does, may be able to comment.

VS strips out (or rather ignores) them, and will not output them which effectively means you lose them.

Ulead's higher-end authoring program, DVD Workshop, can be used to insert new sub-titles properly. But I confess I have never used it to process video with existing sub-titles embedded in it. I assume it would work. Hopefully someone more expert in Workshop than I will jump in on this one too!

[DVDDoug]

Whenever I've attempted anything like this, I've created my own menus, and I have simply lost subtitles and any alternate-language soundtracks.

1. The video quality in the compilation DVD to be identical to that of the original for all unmodified frames

Just keep in mind, that if you combine clips from two different DVDs, they will have different bitrates, etc., and one or more of the clips will have to be re-rendered. If you want to combine clips form the same movie, smart render will only re-render the video during the transitions.

You will probably need to use several 3rd-party "DVD hacking tools" to extract the audio streams, subtitle streams, menus, etc., and re-assemble them later. Ulead DVD Workshop can make a DVD with subtitles and multiple soundtracks, but I don't think you can import existing subtitles (sub-pictures). I'm pretty sure Workshop requires a text file.

Some "Hacker tools" to get you started:
VOBedit
IFOedit
DVD Rebuilder

In any case, it's going to be lots of work, and using these hacker tools would take quite a bit of research & study. You really have to understand how DVDs are "constructed', because, most don't come with instructions.

2. I didn't totally follow your explanation of subtitles. Are programs like ReDo or Womble relevant to my specific requirement for retention of existing subtitles or are they only relevant if you want to create new subtitles? Are the original subtitles embedded in the VOB files on the DVD?

Yes. The subtitles, audio, and multiple angles are all multiplexed together in the VOB file.

VideoReDo and Womble are simply MPEG editors (VideoReDo can only cut & splice, and Womble is a full-featured editor.). They won't help you edit subtitles or multiple audio tracks. If you use VideoReDo or Womble, you will need to use a 3rd-party tool to make one big VOB file before editing it. If you join VOB files back together manually, you'llget a glitch.

I've I have Womble, but I've never tried editing an MPEG (or VOB) with multiple audio streams or subtitles. I don't know what would happen it you tried to crossfade with these kinds of files...

[David Anderson]

You will probably need to use several 3rd-party "DVD hacking tools" to extract the audio streams, subtitle streams, menus, etc., and re-assemble them later ........... The subtitles, audio, and multiple angles are all multiplexed together in the VOB file.

Doug,
Thanks for all that info. Given that the VOB file contains the video data, the above quotes from your post lead me to think that re-assembling subtitle streams that run throughout the clip might also force an undesirable re-rendering of all frames. Is this true, or can one fiddle about with subtitles and audio without affecting the video?

[GeorgeW]

If you "edit" the movie, you will have to modify the subpic streams to match your edits (otherwise the timings will be off). As mentioned -- this type of work is NOT available in VideoStudio alone...

Regards,
George

[David Anderson]

Just keep in mind, that if you combine clips from two different DVDs, they will have different bitrates, etc., and one or more of the clips will have to be re-rendered.

Doug,
The particular job I have in mind is to make a compilation of short clips from an opera that spreads over 3 DVDs. I am giving a talk to a music society and selecting these clips from the original DVDs would be a tedious business. Using a compilation DVD would be much slicker. Would it be likely that all 3 original DVDs use the same bitrate? How can I check this? What other specifications might vary, in addition to bitrate?

If you "edit" the movie, you will have to modify the subpic streams to match your edits (otherwise the timings will be off). As mentioned -- this type of work is NOT available in VideoStudio alone...

George,
Could you please be a little more specific about what you mean by "modify the subpic streams to match your edits".

David

[GeorgeW]

George,
Could you please be a little more specific about what you mean by "modify the subpic streams to match your edits".

David

Let's say you have a 10-minute video, and it has a subtitle stream for the duration. If you take the approach of extracting all the separate streams (video, audio, subpics, etc...), then that is when you have to modify all the streams to keep them "in sync"

For instance, if you take out pieces of the video to make it only 3 minutes long, you still have a subpic stream that has the timecodes for the 10-minute version. You would have to modify that subpic stream to match your video edits...

That being said, I would recommend DVD Shrink in Re-Author mode to set in/out points. That will automatically "cut" all streams to keep everything in sync...

Regards,
George

[David Anderson]

George,
Thanks for the further explanation. Now I understand.

[kebrinton]

I can't imagine that the bitrate in a commercial DVD of an opera would change mid-opera! It's on 3 DVDs only because of the capacity of DVDs, not because the opera requires it.

[DVDDoug]

lead me to think that re-assembling subtitle streams that run throughout the clip might also force an undesirable re-rendering of all frames.

No. Multiplexing means alternating. The video file is a long sequence of bytes. Some video data, then audio data, then some subtitle data, then maybe some alternate angle video data etc. This means that it's possible to alter the audio or subtitles without affecting the video at all. I've done that with audio, but never with subtitles.

Would it be likely that all 3 original DVDs use the same bitrate?

Maybe?

How can I check this? What other specifications might vary, in addition to bitrate? ?

With the video loaded into Video Studio, right-click and it should give you the properties. Since these are all from DVDs, I can't think of anything other than the bitrate that would cause a re-render.

Re-rendering isn't the end of the world. The quality will probably still be better than VHS... You might not even notice the difference. This is a big, hard, project and re-rendering would be the least of my worries. Sorry to be so pessimistic. Maybe I shouldn't say "big", but there are lots of little tricky details.

If you don't really need the transitions (if you are planning to pause and speak between clips) You can create a separate title (a separate "movie") for each clip. In that case, they could all have different bitrates. (A DVD can have up to 99 titles, and each title can have up to 99 chapters)

Could you please be a little more specific about what you mean by "modify the subpic streams to match your edits".

The multiplexed video is the video-stream, the audio is the audio-stream, and the subtitles are stored as a sub-picture stream(s).

Subtitles are stored as bitmap images, not as text. (For example, you can't change the font or correct spelling without re-creating the subtitles.)