How to Capture videos made in PAL M Brazilian standard?

gromow · Post by **gromow** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:19 am

SUBJECT: Setting of the Video Studio basic 7 for the Brazilian PAL M System (image according to the American M System and color according to the German PAL System.

Nature of the problem I do not know how to set the program properly to capture local Brazilian videos.

Properties of your source files The files are standard Brazilian VHS PAL M videos (with NTSC files I do not have a problem, it works).

What devices are involved and their mode of connection? Notebook, CompuUSA Video Grabber

Project Settings That's the question?

Output format (file, DVD, VCD, SVCD) not defined yest, but probably VCR.

PAL or NTSC PAL M ?Brazilian System

Error Codes (if any) No defined income image.

lazael · Post by **lazael** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:37 am

I think most USA tv products don't have a PAL option. Other countries have both PAL and Never-the-same-colour

Are you trying to capture a tv signal or one from a camera ?

gromow · Post by **gromow** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:37 pm

Lazael,
At first, thanks for your answer.
We are talking about one ULEAD product: VideoStudio 7 SE Basic. This product accepts NTSC, PAL (German) and SECAN (French) systems, as well as has some adjustments that can be made on the video capture settings. At least I sent my question hoping that this forum deals with questions related to this program.
My hope is to get answer on how to customize the video capture setting of the VideoStudio 7 SE Basic in order to adjust it for this "strange and exotic" Brazilian System, but since it was created as a mix of the M system (grandfather of the NTSC system) and PAL there can be a possible setting that could work.

Just a bit of history: the Brazilian PAL M system was created back in the seventies and added the PAL color system to the existing M black & white TV system. This was made in order not to force the millions of Brazilians that had M system B&W TV sets to discard them. One has to remember that Brazil is a third world country and the situation back in the seventies was even more difficult for many persons that already did have achieved a big goal by having bought a B&W TV set.
Regards
Alexander

lazael wrote:I think most USA tv products don't have a PAL option. Other countries have both PAL and Never-the-same-colour

Are you trying to capture a tv signal or one from a camera ?

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:03 pm

lazael wrote: Are you trying to capture a tv signal or one from a camera ?

If you set VS to PAL it should capture all PAL types, as far as I'm aware.

So is the signal you are sending it PAL?
What is the answer to the above?
If so what happens when you try to capture?

gromow · Post by **gromow** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 3:14 pm

skier-hughes wrote:
lazael wrote: Are you trying to capture a tv signal or one from a camera ?
If you set VS to PAL it should capture all PAL types, as far as I'm aware.

So is the signal you are sending it PAL?
What is the answer to the above?
If so what happens when you try to capture?

The signal is in PAL M as explained above (mixture between the American M image system and the German PAL color system - keepeing the American number of lines and frequency).
The origin of the signal is a VCR (Video Cassette), thus not from TV nor from camera.
When I try to capture nothing happens, the VS screen continues black and the grabbing does not start.

Thanks for the support.
Alexander

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:33 pm

Can you capture from anything else?
What happens if you try to capture it as an ntsc signal?
Are you going direct from the vcr to the pc, or is the CompuUSA video grabber involved?
If so, can you post a link to its technical details for me to look at, as I can't find anything that I can be sure is the right item.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:54 pm

Skier-hughes -- the problem is that PAL-M is very much a system on its own. It is an amalgam of both PAL and NTSC systems as gromow has explained. It uses the PAL colour system but transmits using the 525 lines of NTSC instead of the 625 for PAL. Using NTSC to capture means you will get the right lines but no colour.

The bottom line is, though, that unless someone on this forum has some specific experience with PAL-M, we are unlikely to have a fruitful exchange on this one. There are of course many users of Ulead products in Brazil, so they can obviously get them to work somehow. But unless one of our infrequent Brazilian members jump into this thread, I am not sure how much we can help.

gromow -- this has nothing to do with resolving the PAL-M question. I realise you would be unwilling to consider upgrading until that issue is resolved. However, I assume you know that VS7 SE Basic is both very outdated and crippled. Moreover, being Basic, it will not even be able to process a project in a format which you can burn to DVD -- only VCD and SVCD.

gromow · Post by **gromow** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:13 pm

skier-hughes wrote:Can you capture from anything else?
What happens if you try to capture it as an ntsc signal?
Are you going direct from the vcr to the pc, or is the CompuUSA video grabber involved?
If so, can you post a link to its technical details for me to look at, as I can't find anything that I can be sure is the right item.

Anyhow, the CompUSA video grabber I have has the code SKU 3187714 and the corresponding page has the link:
http://www.compusa.com/products/product ... ode=318714

Yes, I tried some of the available alternatives, all PAL and some NTSC but it did not work.

gromow · Post by **gromow** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:42 pm

Ken Berry wrote:Skier-hughes -- the problem is that PAL-M is very much a system on its own. It is an amalgam of both PAL and NTSC systems as gromow has explained. It uses the PAL colour system but transmits using the 525 lines of NTSC instead of the 625 for PAL. Using NTSC to capture means you will get the right lines but no colour.

The bottom line is, though, that unless someone on this forum has some specific experience with PAL-M, we are unlikely to have a fruitful exchange on this one. There are of course many users of Ulead products in Brazil, so they can obviously get them to work somehow. But unless one of our infrequent Brazilian members jump into this thread, I am not sure how much we can help.

gromow -- this has nothing to do with resolving the PAL-M question. I realise you would be unwilling to consider upgrading until that issue is resolved. However, I assume you know that VS7 SE Basic is both very outdated and crippled. Moreover, being Basic, it will not even be able to process a project in a format which you can burn to DVD -- only VCD and SVCD.

Hello Ken,
Yes, I think that the way to solve my PAL M problem is not the easiest one, but I'm still optimistic.
It is always the same old game, the VS7 SE Basic version I have came together with the CompUSA's High Speed USB Video Grabber. At the moment of the purchase I had no means to know the CompUSA was delivering to me a "both very outdated and crippled" version of the ULEAD program. How to classify this attitude? I do not know, but I made the purchase on 02JAN2007 (five days ago) and got a program that is already scrap!!!
At the present I have to solve the situation with PAL M setting, after that I will be ready for the next step.
In fact my goal is to "save" some material I have in VHS tapes and that is already deteriorating. Most of this material is related to my hobby - the VW Beetle. I already wrote 2 books about this subject, launched the World Wide VW Beetle Day and the tapes show some of this work... Unfortunately most of the tapes are in PAL M...
Allow me to thank you for your support.
Alexander Gromow
www.fuscabrasil.net

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:54 pm

Just a quick reply to say I will do a bit of research and get back to you.
I do not think that upgrading from your SE version at this point will make any difference because even though the SE version is as mentioned 'crippled' I would not think that the PAL M would be a part of that restriction.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 11:54 pm

It is really CompUSA's fault for bundling such an old piece of software with their hardware. Yet I would have thought that if they sell their hardware in Brazil it would pelo menos be suitable for Brazilian TV! Or maybe they just thought it would work for the half of the population which uses NTSC TVs and equipment, and tanto faz! But with VS7 SE Basic, I think you will only be able to produce files of your old tapes in mpeg-1 (low quality) or else very large but good quality files in DV format. But you will need a lot of storage for that. Unless the version of VS7 that they bundled actually allows you at least to produce an mpeg-2 file which you can burn to DVD with another program.

Vejo agora o seu sitio web 'fuscabrasil'. O Fusca sempre está fabricado no Brasil? (Sei que a fabricaçäo foi terminada no Mexico há muitos anos atrás...) Eu passei 3 anos e meio em Brasília no anos 80 (na Embaixada da Austrália) e naturalmente ví muitos Fuscas, mas pessoalmente comprei um Gol (que chamei 'Gilberto Gol'!!!

)

Em tudo caso, boa sorte com o seu problema! Tchaw!

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 12:16 am

First I have conducted a Google Search

From this I discovered this result which appears to be the best candidate for your situation.
Taken from wikipedia

The issues of lack of colour, or having to convert the video to PAL-60 can be easily solved by using RGB connections through SCART cables, which are very common in Europe.

Other interesting links:
Colour - shootfirst

PAL-M is also 525 lines, with 60 fields per second (30 frames per second), but the colour burst signal is handled differently compared with NTSC. PAL-M is not compatible with PAL, but the black and white part of the signal is compatible with NTSC. Only Brazil and Laos use PAL-M so their consumer recorders often have the colour circuitry to play back both NTSC and PAL-M.

Pure Motion User forum

Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:42 pm Post subject: What's the difference between PAL, PAL-60 and NTSC?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PAL-60 is an analogue-only format; it is not relevant to DV. DV has 2 formats: PAL and NTSC. The differences are as follows:

DV PAL: 25 frames per second, 720x576 resolution
DV NTSC: 29.97 frames per second, 720x480 resolution

If you try to play back NTSC on a PAL TV, the PAL TV does not understand the following:

a) the NTSC frame rate is faster than it is expecting
b) the colour information is encoded differently than a PAL signal

At best, a PAL TV will show the NTSC video in grey, because it doesn't understand the colour information. At worst, the PAL TV will not display the video at all.

PAL-60 uses the same frame rate as NTSC, however it encodes the colour information in the analogue signal in the same way as PAL. Most PAL TVs can tolerate the faster frame rate of NTSC and PAL-60, so by encoding the colour in a way that the TV expects, more PAL TVs can understand the signal. When PAL DVD players claim to play NTSC DVDs, they are actually outputting PAL-60 - they are not converting the picture to standard PAL.

This causes a problem when you try to record the PAL-60 signal on a PAL VCR or DVD recorder. Most of these will only record at the PAL frame rate of 25 frames per second, so reject the PAL-60 signal

Answers.com

PAL-M standard (Brasil)
In Brazil, PAL is used in conjunction with the 525 line, 29.97 frame/s system M, using (very nearly) the NTSC colour subcarrier frequency.
* Almost all other countries using system M use NTSC.
The PAL colour system (either baseband or with any RF system, with the normal 4.43 MHz subcarrier unlike PAL-M) can also be applied to an NTSC-like 525-line (480i) picture to form what is often known as "PAL-60" (sometimes "PAL-60/525" or "Pseudo PAL").

Tenlab Multisystem products
Offer for sale a Pal M to NTSC converter.

gromow · Post by **gromow** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:31 am

Ken Berry wrote:It is really CompUSA's fault for bundling such an old piece of software with their hardware. Yet I would have thought that if they sell their hardware in Brazil it would pelo menos be suitable for Brazilian TV! Or maybe they just thought it would work for the half of the population which uses NTSC TVs and equipment, and tanto faz! But with VS7 SE Basic, I think you will only be able to produce files of your old tapes in mpeg-1 (low quality) or else very large but good quality files in DV format. But you will need a lot of storage for that. Unless the version of VS7 that they bundled actually allows you at least to produce an mpeg-2 file which you can burn to DVD with another program.

Vejo agora o seu sitio web 'fuscabrasil'. O Fusca sempre est?fabricado no Brasil? (Sei que a fabrica諙o foi terminada no Mexico h?muitos anos atr嫳...) Eu passei 3 anos e meio em Bras璱ia no anos 80 (na Embaixada da Austr嫮ia) e naturalmente v?muitos Fuscas, mas pessoalmente comprei um Gol (que chamei 'Gilberto Gol'!!! )

Em tudo caso, boa sorte com o seu problema! Tchaw!

Sorry Ken,
I just have to explain that I bought the CompUSA video grabber in Orlando/FL USA where I spent some days, anyhow they did not behave correctly concening the software they added to the bundle.

Asking for the comprehension of the rest of the group, I'll answer to Ken in Portuguese about the VW Beetle fabrication in Brazil, by the way his Portuguese is perfect. If any of you has interess on the subject please let me know.

Caro Ken,
(desculpe a acentuacao em Portugues nao sai corretamente neste forum)
Parabens por seu Portugues que otimo. O Fusca teve a sua fabricacao encerrada em 86. Em 93 por motivos politicos o entao presidente Itamar Franco pediu a sua volta sob o titulo de "carro popular" - uma coisa completamente fora de foco, pois o carro popular deveria ter sido o GURGEL BR-800. Mesmo assim o Fusca foi fabricado, nesta segunda fase, ate 96, quando sua fabricacao se encerrou definitivamente no Brasil. No Mexico a producao continuou por mais alguns anos. Voce levou o Gilberto Gol para a Australia?
Mais uma vez grato por sua prestimoza ajuda.
Alexander Gromow

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:40 am

It may well be the video grabber, do you have any firends who have simialr pieces of equipment you could try?

gromow · Post by **gromow** » Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:52 pm

sjj1805 wrote:First I have conducted a Google Search

From this I discovered this result which appears to be the best candidate for your situation.
Taken from wikipedia
The issues of lack of colour, or having to convert the video to PAL-60 can be easily solved by using RGB connections through SCART cables, which are very common in Europe.
Other interesting links:
Colour - shootfirst
PAL-M is also 525 lines, with 60 fields per second (30 frames per second), but the colour burst signal is handled differently compared with NTSC. PAL-M is not compatible with PAL, but the black and white part of the signal is compatible with NTSC. Only Brazil and Laos use PAL-M so their consumer recorders often have the colour circuitry to play back both NTSC and PAL-M.
Pure Motion User forum
Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 1:42 pm Post subject: What's the difference between PAL, PAL-60 and NTSC?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PAL-60 is an analogue-only format; it is not relevant to DV. DV has 2 formats: PAL and NTSC. The differences are as follows:

DV PAL: 25 frames per second, 720x576 resolution
DV NTSC: 29.97 frames per second, 720x480 resolution

If you try to play back NTSC on a PAL TV, the PAL TV does not understand the following:

a) the NTSC frame rate is faster than it is expecting
b) the colour information is encoded differently than a PAL signal

At best, a PAL TV will show the NTSC video in grey, because it doesn't understand the colour information. At worst, the PAL TV will not display the video at all.

PAL-60 uses the same frame rate as NTSC, however it encodes the colour information in the analogue signal in the same way as PAL. Most PAL TVs can tolerate the faster frame rate of NTSC and PAL-60, so by encoding the colour in a way that the TV expects, more PAL TVs can understand the signal. When PAL DVD players claim to play NTSC DVDs, they are actually outputting PAL-60 - they are not converting the picture to standard PAL.

This causes a problem when you try to record the PAL-60 signal on a PAL VCR or DVD recorder. Most of these will only record at the PAL frame rate of 25 frames per second, so reject the PAL-60 signal
Answers.com
PAL-M standard (Brasil)
In Brazil, PAL is used in conjunction with the 525 line, 29.97 frame/s system M, using (very nearly) the NTSC colour subcarrier frequency.
* Almost all other countries using system M use NTSC.
The PAL colour system (either baseband or with any RF system, with the normal 4.43 MHz subcarrier unlike PAL-M) can also be applied to an NTSC-like 525-line (480i) picture to form what is often known as "PAL-60" (sometimes "PAL-60/525" or "Pseudo PAL").
Tenlab Multisystem products
Offer for sale a Pal M to NTSC converter.

Dear sjj1805,
Very kind of yours having invested that much energy in helping me!
THANK YOU!
But now, how to translate this knowledge to the setting parameters of the VS? That's the point I guess...
The video grabber is an almost "passive element" in this question since it can grab NTSC, SECAN and PAL. The relevant issue is the interpretation of the incomming signal by the corresponding software.
I do suppose that there should be a "standard" PAL M alternative on the settings menu of the VS. What I´m trying to find out is if the VS is configurable for PAL M since the option does not exist as standard program feature.
Regards
Alexander