What HDV Camcorder to buy?

EES · Post by **EES** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 12:53 am

I am thinking to replace my old Sony PC100E by a new HDV one, and my favorites are the Sony HDR-HC3E or maybe better, the HDR-SR1E that has a 30 GB hard disk. But I have also seen that SR1E use the new AVCHD format, and I am not sure if it is supported by MSP8 or if it will be supported soon. Another point is if I should down convert the 1080i or 720p format, given that today I own a 42 inch SD TV (Sony) 1024 x 1024 that supports 576p and is not HD ready. What should be the best strategy in this case? I wouldn't mind to buy an extra hard disk for my desktop to save the edited HDV recordings as a temporary step. Should I convert to WMV-HD in that case? I would appreciate any help.

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:14 am

HD is still too unsettled. If you don't need it immediately, wait some time more for things to shake down. Then go for a Panasonic!

EES · Post by **EES** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 8:53 am

Yes, I will do it. Is what I was suspecting. Thanks a lot.

neonbob · Post by **neonbob** » Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:01 pm

Devil wrote:HD is still too unsettled. If you don't need it immediately, wait some time more for things to shake down. Then go for a Panasonic!

Speak for yourself!!

I have the Sony HC3 hi def cam and I LOVE it! The images are so crisp and clear it knocks your socks off! It's so clear it's like looking through a window instead of watching a tv And you can now easily burn HD to standard dvd for playback in the toshiba player. It's a WORLD of differece from dv.... leaves it behind in the dust.

The sony HC3 is great. There is also the canon Hv10 which is also good... it has a slightly shrper picture than the HC3 in full light because of the over sized cmos, but the drawback is that is does not handle low light quite as well.

If you want clarity, sharpness, and incredible colours... then forget dv... go HD!!

I would not get into the HDD ones yet though... they're running with the AVCHD format which is so new that there is not too much in the way of editors that can handle it.

troppo · Post by **troppo** » Sun Dec 03, 2006 4:25 am

I would recommend sony. I have recently purchased the HVR-A1P and am very happy with it. Initially I had reservations due to it's size and CMOS sensor, but it performs very well. Sony has just released it's latest with a 3CMOS sensor, both in professional and consumer versions. I think the consumer version is FX7 and the pro version is the HVR-G. From memory the pro version is about $1500 more than the consumer version, the biggest difference being the sound capabilities.
I don't edit in HD yet, as it's not really the home standard so far.

devo_111111 · Post by **devo_111111** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:14 am

What about tape vs HD? Does it make much of a difference?

neonbob · Post by **neonbob** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 3:23 am

devo_111111 wrote:What about tape vs HD? Does it make much of a difference?

The problem with the new hard drive HD cams is that they use a new format (AVCHD). The format is so new that are no editors that will work with it. You have to download the M2TS files to your computer and than convert them over to something that can be edited. Given enough time, I am sure someone will come up with some kind of editing system for them. But for now, it's a pain in the A**.

I am also more partial to tapes any way... they're cheap and they give you a hard copy.... not so with harddrives.

cgould · Post by **cgould** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:12 am

I bought the Canon HV10, and the image quality is phenomenal. Looks beautiful on my 55" RP-CRT HDTV (w/ analog component.)

I have captured some HDV MPG2 files w/ MSPro8, it works decently well, same as the Sony; need to set the camera to HDV over firewire, not DV.
MSPro8 has decent support for HDV, but I don't think for AVCHD, and I agree w/ the "cheap tape backup/master" vs expensive/less compatible HDD-based AVCHD (or disk)...

so I'd recommend a tape-based HDV camera for now: Canon , Sony, or JVC/Panasonic, whatever brand/model you prefer & can afford;
look for other forum websites for more detailed reviews/comparisons for each camera.

Most all of the HDV cameras can record or down-convert in-camera to DV format as well, so your DV tape/editing system investment is protected (and you can edit/work with DV painlessly from your HDV master recording, even if you have a slower computer that can't handle HD editing yet. Regular DVD output should work fine from that SD DV output in the meantime. Once you can handle HD editing/output, just flick the switch to use all the detail on your original HDV master.)

**
Note: MSPro is NOT perfect/fully functional working with HDV , vs DV;
I hope they can address these asap:

- "DV" metadata (time/datestamp, timecode) is NOT maintained during capture to MPG files, even though the camera records it. Outputting M2T files back to tape will also lose the timestamp info.

- as a side effect from above, "split by scene" using timestamp to split shots, does NOT work. You have to split by scene content. This is extremely annoying, especially since scrubbing through an MPG/HD timeline is very slow compared to DV.

- also above, batch/camera control capture/recording doesn't seem to work so well, eg doesn't control/get the timecode correctly. I normally just capture entire tapes, not batch, but this could be a pain re-capturing few scenes or precisely recording back to tape later...

- "DV Scan" tape logging feature does not work w/ HDV either.

These are all fairly important workflow impediments.
Ulead, are you listening/planning to resolve these shortcomings for HD??

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:22 am

I was an early adopter of HDV.

I bought the JVC JY-HD10: http://tinyurl.com/y5ukma

The camcorder functioned fine.

No complaints.

However, I still think it was one of the most poorly-timed decisions I've ever made.

The only reason I bought it was for work. (I was a Ulead consultant at the time.)

Then my consulting contract expired.

The camcorder cost me $2,700.

About 95% of my relatives still haven't splurged on high definition TVs.

So my HDV camcorder was not going to record anything they could watch now.

The high definition DVD war (Blu-ray Disc vs. HD DVD) remains unsettled and the drives/recorders still cost a fortune.

And now I survey the HDV landscape and I'm troubled.

Economy HDV camcorders are being "dumbed down" too much.

- The Canon HV10 -- with its nice small form factor and great image quality -- has no external microphone input, which is a deal-breaker for me.

- The Sony HDR-HC3 forces you to buy a Sony microphone if you want to input external sound because you're constrained to make use of Sony's proprietary "hot shoe."

- The sub-$5,000 HDV semi-pro camcorders are all great cameras. Canon and Sony both offer outstanding new HDV models... the Canon XL H1, the Canon XH G1, the Canon XH A1, and the Sony HVR-V1U. JVC's new pro HDV camcorders are also vastly improved over my old JY-HD10. But these are too expensive for most consumers.

Still, there's no question that AVCHD is the "hot" new consumer technology.

JVC, Canon, and Sony all have substantial investments in HDV.

Panasonic chose not to offer HDV camcorders.

I basically agree with former industry executive Tore B. Nordahl.

His comments:

HDV is in trouble, I believe. Canon, JVC and Sony keep battling to win customers for their (too) many models of HDV camcorders. By the end of 2006, Canon, JVC and Sony will each have 3 HDV models, for a total of 9 (more or less) professional models. In addition, Sony offers several HDV models in the high-end consumer market. Panasonic will soon be in the driver's seat.

Nordahl also wrote:

Look for new semi-professional AVCHD models selling for as little as $3,000 from Panasonic.

http://tinyurl.com/vfgn3

HDV is great.

It has helped bridge the divide between the standard definition giant, MiniDV, and the new frontier of high definition.

However, AVCHD offers some compelling advantages over HDV.

The "hot" new kids on the consumer camcorder block are the two forthcoming high definition models from Panasonic: the HDC-SD1 (flash memory) and HDC-DX1 (8cm DVD).

http://tinyurl.com/yc4vpf

Advantages of AVCHD:

1. tapeless
2. can consume far less space (advantage for burning discs)
3. full raster 1920 x 1080 instead of HDV's 1440 x 1080
4. With twice the efficiency of MPEG-2, it should offer significantly better quality images than HDV at lower bitrates

AVCHD -- like HDV -- still poses problems for editing because it is a "long GOP" format. In addition, the big disadvantage may be the processor requirements. You may need a heck of a powerful system to edit this format.

However, Panasonic is offering a new "AVC-Intra" codec for the forthcoming AJ-HPX2000: http://tinyurl.com/y78tvc

I suspect that will be the "hottest" high definition codec in 2007.

"AVC-Intra" is different from AVCHD in that "AVC-Intra" is an I-Frame codec... much easier to edit and the codec supports very high bitrates... 50 Mbps and 100 Mbps.

AVCHD supports a maximum of 24 Mbps.

Both "AVCHD" and "AVC-Intra" are H.264-compliant.

HDV is fine for now.

But if one is truly looking toward the future, then one might consider waiting.

Yes, let some time pass before you upgrade.

Allow consumer computers to get faster and better able to handle high definition video requirements.

See how it all shakes out.

I sold my JVC JY-HD10 and I've set that cash aside to buy something I like better.

Meanwhile, the prices of high definition consumer camcorders should drop to MiniDV camcorder levels within two or three years.

Yes, if you continue to shoot on MiniDV, then you might miss recording events in high definition for the next two or three years.

However, chances are your relatives have standard definition DVD players and they'll be able to watch what you record on MiniDV after you transfer MiniDV to DVD.

They probably don't have high definition DVD players and, therefore, won't be able to watch high definition DVDs -- even if you have a high definition DVD burner.

On the other hand, there's no way I'm going to throw away my collection of standard definition DVDs; I'll continue to enjoy them years and years from now.

My standard definition DVDs are terrific; I have treasured films and television shows and there's no way I'm going to throw them away just to be able to replace them with high definition DVDs that are taking forever to be released anyway and we don't even know how the format war will end.

So I don't mind being "on hold" when it comes to high definition.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:19 am

I too have the HC3 and I really love it. I find myself using the camera for things that I didn't use my old DV cam or my VHS-C with. I use it more because the images are so stunning that it's truly like being there and reliving it. When viewing on my plasma I've had several people say that it actually looks *better* than real life. They said this on their own and I believe they feel that way because you see such detail and color magnified when zooming in,etc. I don't know much about the other cams but have read decent things about the new (JVC?) cam. Cnet has good reviews on them.

With all that being said, I have to tell you that I agree with almost every post above this. Everyone is right.

Jumping in this early will have its drawbacks later. But you can always say that about electronics. That's why I waited a bit for the HD cams to come down to a more reasonable level. $1000 range is not too bad. But there will always be something better and eventually cheaper around the corner.

The reason I decided to go ahead with it is because that considerably better or cheaper cam may be 2-3 years away. If I wait, that means I've missed 2-3 years of high def events that I will never be able to capture. That averages to about $333 a year IF the cam only lasts me 3 years. To me, that is worth it for the captured memories.

It all depends on what's worth it to you and what you think you might be capturing...i.e. new baby, aging relative,etc.

Another thing about High Def footage (of any kind) that makes me feel different than I do about other electronics...yes, it will get better and it will advance. But it can only get SO MUCH better. That's the difference this time-HD footage is so close to real that it can't get that much better. Yes 1080P is/will be better than 1080i but you're talking about minute differences. If you read most of the reviews on 1080P tvs, most of the hard core video enthusiasts had trouble discerning the difference between the two.

I'm not saying I won't get a bigger and better cam down the road because I'm sure I will. But my guess is the target price range will be about the same. But I guarantee you the jump in quality won't be remotely close to the jump in quality from analog/digital to HDV. It's just too good.

So it's financially wise to wait. Of course it always is. These are toys we're talking about after all.

If you want to wait, it may be a wise decision but don't wait because you think there's a lack of quality out there now. That's simply not true. There are so damn good cameras out there now for a decent price. I can speak for the HC3.

Good luck.

...and my comments on the tape vs. HD.

My brother wants the same camera that I have and is getting it for christmas. He wanted the Hard drive version though. I did a little bit of research and this is what I found. (anybody correct me if I'm wrong)

The HC3 basically comes in 3 different versions. The tape version (mine), the Hard drive version, and the Blue ray mini disc version.

*A miniDV tape (which mine uses) cost approx $2.50 if you go to Sam's club or something of the sort. The pros are that's it's inexpensive for the tapes and if you're on vacation and you run out you can always run to the store and buy more. Another big pro (IMO) is that you have an extra physical backup (the tape) of your source even after you've transferred it to your computer. The only real con I can think of is that you have to capture it to your computer which takes 1x real time.

*The hard drive version is 30 gig. The pro would be that it's easier (and much faster I imagine) to transfer onto your computer. The big con is that one hour of HDV is 30 gig so that means your whole camera is used up until you go unload on your computer. That seems like it could cause major hassle when your footage exceeds one hour or you're on vacation,etc. Your camera becomes useless after one hour of footage if you're not near your computer. Even if you are, you have to wait instead of just dropping in another tape. And you don't have the physical backup of your source.

*The mini blue ray disc seems like a great option-if we knew who was going to win the format war of HD-DVD vs. BlueRay. If Blueray loses then you are really screwed. Because we don't know who will win, I wouldn't even consider that camera.

luc · Post by **luc** » Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:21 pm

ebone wrote: If I wait, that means I've missed 2-3 years of high def events that I will never be able to capture.

I fully agree. I bought the HD HC1 one year ago and I have already 1 year of high def events.
Although I have not really started to edit all my tapes because lack of time and lack of maturity in the best way to edit.
I think my config and methodology are now almost ready to start to edit efficiently in HDV.
It always needs learning time when you change of format, but the more important is to shot with the best quality/resolution as soon as possible.

I had the same experience when I bought my first DV camera back in 1996... at this time DV editing was very painful and demanding in terms of SW/HW, I just kept my tapes carefully and patiently during 3 or 4 years until I had a PC config suitable and mature SW in order to edit properly in DV.

I think as well that HDV may not have the same success than DV and I will certainly change format again after few years. But HDV is affordable and I do not regret it when I watch my last 2005 and 2006 events in high resolution

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:27 am

HDV has been great, but its days are numbered.

I agree with this latest editorial by industry consultant Tore B. Nordahl:

http://tinyurl.com/ttpgy

In my opinion, HDV camcorder sales will drop significantly in the second half of 2007, and drop sharply in 2008. That is only a short 5-year life-span: 2004 -2008.

Panasonic's AVC-Intra and Grass Valley's JPEG2000 intra-frame compression are slated to soon dominate professional HD acquisition, editing and storage in my opinion, pushing out MPEG-2 long GOP before it could establish itself as DV's dominant replacement. Intra-frame HD acquisition is back with full force in 2007, more desirable than ever.

I see HDV as a format that won't achieve the dominance that MiniDV achieved.

But it hasn't been a failure like MicroMV, either.

HDV is a "bridge" format whose time is coming to an end.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

neonbob · Post by **neonbob** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:10 pm

Jerry Jones wrote:HDV has been great, but its days are numbered........

.....HDV is a "bridge" format whose time is coming to an end.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

This may or may not be true. But when it comes to reading crystal balls, I don't think you can find a pro.

There are a few things however that are known. DV is has been a great format, but it's dieing now mainly because it has no place else to go... it is not used in anything other than camcorders. Mpeg2 although not as efficient as other newer formats, is a WIDLY used and accepted format. There are literally billions of commercial mpeg based dvd's in stores, people's homes, and on computers everywhere. And when you talk dvd's, then DV is not even a complete format without mpeg2 compression. Even the new homeburned hd dvd's are mpeg2 based.

Now, does this all mean that mpeg2 will not be replaced? Definately not... I suspect that one day it will be. But because of its popularity, depth of use, and versatility, you can be assured that it won't be leaving us any time soon!

Meanwhile, the author in your article is terribly flawed in that he bases his beliefs on TODAY'S standards and technologies. AVCHD today is so new that you can't even find an editor that will work well with it (which is one of its problems). But the point is, who's to say that in this RAPIDLY changing industry, AVCHD won't be unseated by something else in 8 months or a year? Unseating something that has not even sprung roots yet is an easy thing to do compared to the deeply rooted mpeg2 format. Mpeg4 has been around for a while now.... hasn't really made a dent in the dirt around mpeg2's roots.

So... will mpeg2 one day be replaced? My guess is that yes it will. Will it happen any time soon? Absolutely not. There will be room for mpeg2 for a LONG time to come. There will be editors for mpeg2 for a LONG time to come. There will be standard universal players that will accept mpeg2 for a LONG time to come.

Mpeg2 may certainly not be the most efficient format by today's standards, but it is most definately the deepest rooted and safest format to bet on in these changing times. However, the same CAN NOT be said for these newer formats. My crystal ball with regards to the newer formats says; "here today, gone tomorrow".... *MAY* apply... so be careful.

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:18 pm

Sorry, you are off on a tangent. No one is suggesting MPEG-2 is dying. HDV using MPEG-2 may perhaps be - I don't know, you don't know, Jerry doesn't know, either.

That is why I wrote

HD is still too unsettled. If you don't need it immediately, wait some time more for things to shake down. Then go for a Panasonic!

in the second post on this thread. The fact that you are all arguing the toss proves that I'm right.

BTW, I'm not going for HD yet and I'll probably stick with DV for a few years to come, just to show you that I practise what I preach.

neonbob · Post by **neonbob** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:49 pm

Devil wrote: The fact that you are all arguing the toss proves that I'm right.

It's not unsettled at all! In fact HD is quite do-able, and with stunning results. Sure... the future changes everything.... especially in the computer/video industry. Things change so fast that all you can do is worry about today. We throw 5 year old computers in the garbage not because they are broken, but because they no longer properly mesh with today's programs/hardware.

The HD industry being "unsettled" is merely your opinion, and if you choose not to take part in it, then all I can say, is that it is your loss. Meanwhile, I get to see my child grow up on the screen in the best quality possible. But in the grand scheme of things... ALL is "unsettled" and ALL will become old and therefore replacable.