Complex project ... Frame Based? or Field Order?

[lifted_one]

Hello,
I have read some posts on the Frame Based vs. Upper Field First vs. Lower Field First issue .... but I still can't figure out which one to go with. So here is my project dynamics ...

My project is comprised of:
- MPEG2 file which I converted from a DVD (using DVDshrink) ... which I recorded from my Panasonic DVR's hard drive ... which came from my Hi8(analog tape) Camcorder.
- AVI files which came from my digital camera via USB. (Lower Firld First?)

Now I am ready to burn this project to a DVD and I need to figure which Frame Type to use.

Thanks a bunch!

[Ken Berry]

Thanks a bunch is about right. And I am afraid that I have to say that we'd only be taking a guess here too.

First, the mpeg-2 file. You say it originated from a Hi-8 analogue tape. Normally, they are captured using Upper Field First, but I simply don't know what system your Panasonic DVR might use for this. Perhaps someone with a Panasonic might be able to answer. Shrink certainly would not have changed the captured Field Order, so in VS, right click on one of the files, and in Properties, it should tell you what the Field Order is.

Next, your .AVI files. It is not clear on what you have said whether the 'digital camera' you mention is a digital still camera or a digital video camera. I suspect it may be the former, but it would be useful if you could confirm this. If it is in fact a digital video camera, though, are the files DV/AVI or uncompressed AVI? Normally, however, you would be correct in thinking they are likely to be Lower Field First when converted to DVD-compliant mpeg-2.

However, if they come from a digital still camera, then they will certainly not be DV, and highly unlikely to be uncompressed AVI (as these are huge -- 65 GB per hour, very much bigger than any camera card). So they would more likely be a variety of mpeg-4 or other highly compressed format (such as XVid or DivX) which use .AVI as their carrier format. But again I would only be guessing at what field order these might use.

They would in any case require conversion to DVD-compatible mpeg-2 if your intention is to burn a standard video DVD. There are a variety of programs that can do this conversion, including the freeware SUPER program which you can find on our Freebies page. I would not use VS for the conversion process -- it would take far too long and may encounter other problems when dealing with one of these highly compressed formats.

As for your DVD, once you have converted the AVI files, they can be burned to disc, just like the mpeg-2 ones can. But -- and it's a big 'but' -- you cannot include both sets of files in a single project if they use different Field Orders i.e. if the mpeg-2s are really Upper Field First, and the AVIs are converted to Lower Field First, you cannot mix them. You can have separate projects, each with its own Field Order, on the same DVD as they would individually be DVD-compliant, but not in the same, single project. One or the other would suffer (jerky movement in parts, especually in pans and zooms), and the whole disc would just look bad as a result.

[lifted_one]

Thank you so much for this knowledge.

I will figure out what my Panasonic DVR records in ...

My Digital Camera is NOT a camcorder at all. It is a simple Canon Digital Camera that is primarily used for taking pictures ... but you can also record short movies with it. Here is what I see when I right click on the clip ...
File Format: Microsoft AVI
Compression: MJPEG Compressor
So this would be a Fram Based clip?

Another brain buster ...
I have an AVI file which I captured from a VCR using a Video Capture Card in my PC ... the encoding during the capture was Divx. The clip is now:
File Format: Microsoft AVI files -- OpenDML
Compression: Divx Decoder Filter
So the original would be Uper Field First?
Did it change when the encoding was being done to DiVX during the capture?

Thank you kindly.

[lifted_one]

They would in any case require conversion to DVD-compatible mpeg-2 if your intention is to burn a standard video DVD. There are a variety of programs that can do this conversion, including the freeware SUPER program which you can find on our Freebies page. I would not use VS for the conversion process -- it would take far too long and may encounter other problems when dealing with one of these highly compressed formats.

VS 9 will not do this for me? So you recommend that I get that SUPER program and do my converts from MPEG4/DIVX to MPEG2 first before I begin my VS project?

My Panasonic DVR records in UFF. So I will have to convert my MPEG4(AVI) files to MPEG2(UFF) ... correct?

Right now I have a DIVX clip followed by the MJPEG clip followed by the MPEG2(UFF) clip in my project ... and when I burn this project to DVD(whatever Frame Type) it plays just fine in WinDVD7 ....
But this is not the way I should be doing it?

[jchunter]

Lifted_one,
IMHO, if you are just beginning video editing, you are starting with way too complex a project. It is certain to cause you a lot of grief and frustration. The final results are unlikely to be satisfactory. Leave AVI(Divx) and MJPEG for some project in the distant future.

I strongly advise doing several "vanilla" projects first. For example, make a project of only DV video that is captured from a MiniDV camcorder. You can add jpeg still photos, add music, transitions, and make some great quality DVDs. You will be amazed at how much you will have to learn to accomplish this.

[Ken Berry]

Lifted_one: I am afraid I tend to agree with John. I have been video editing now for around 5 years, and I don't know the answer to some of your questions.

MJPEG was the predecessor of DV/AVI format. It gives a high quality image in a compressed but not really lossy format, though relatively large files. However, beyond that, I am lost. I am not sure what Field Order that they can be or are converted to. Terry Stetler is our resident expert on MJPEG, and hopefully he might jump in on this one.

As for your project already being burned to DVD, and playing well on your DVD software player, a couple of comments. First, playback on a computer monitor is not the same as playback on a TV. Frame-based will play perfectly well on your monitor, as will UFF and LFF, but the same may not happen when you play it on your TV. Have you tried it? If it works, well good -- by chance you have hit upon the right combination.

However, with regard to that, it sounds to me as though you are using a potentially risky work flow, namely putting your various video clips in the timeline, doing what editing you need to do, and then going straight to Share > Create Disc > DVD. The burning module then has to undertake the incredibly complex task of converting your MJPEG and DivX files into DVD-compatible mpeg-2 files on the fly, while also having to multiplex the video and audio components, create the menu etc and actually burn the disc. How long did this take to do??? Trying to convert DivX alone by this means causes most computers simply to stop working on that job, or else it takes several hours to complete.

VS is, in theory, supposed to be able to burn straight from the timeline. And for some people, that may work all the time. For others, it may work some of the time. And for yet others, it may never work.

Our Recommended Procedure was devised to cover the last two groups of people. Basically, we suggest that you first convert the (edited?) DivX and MJPEG projects separately to DVD-compliant mpeg-2s. Hopefully with the same Field Order as your existing mpeg-2. Some people will jump on me for saying this, but in the circumstances, I would say you probably have little alternative. And that is to then insert those new mpeg-2s into your project on the timeline, do any further editing (though try to keep this to a minimum).

And then, once you have finished editing it, go to Share > Create Video File > DVD, to produce a single DVD-compliant mpeg-2 of your whole project. Then close the project, and click on Share > Create Disc > DVD, then insert that new mpeg-2, create your menu and burn.

And good luck if you proceed. As John Hunter suggests, you have picked a really curly one for such an early project!