Looking for new camcorder -- Pros vs Cons of hard drive unit

[kphutch]

I have a 2 year old Sony DCR-TRV 460 Digital 8 camcorder that met its death recently. I am considering my new purchase and am looking at buying a camcorder with a hard drive, specifically the Sony DCR-SR80. In all the reviews that I have read about this camcorder, the video editing software that comes with the unit is very poor. So I will be using Video Studio.

This camcorder will just be used to record family events. I then want to burn to DVD to archive. I don't do much editing and just add a chapter menu to my DVD projects. The thing I am wondering about is that this camcorder records its video in MPEG-2 format. I've read on this forum that if you want to do any editing, you should capture with AVI/DV. Forgive my lack of knowledge, but is that what I would do with this camcorder?

It seems counter-intuitive to have a camcorder that records in MPEG-2, capture on my computer in AVI/DV and then save back to MPEG-2 to burn the project....OR, with my limited editing could I just capture to computer in MPEG-2, edit and burn?

Like I said, I'm not very knowledgable about this stuff, and just know enough to be dangerous. Am I missing something here? Any advice or opinions about hard drive camcorders would be appreciated...I'm sick of the hassle of tapes and would like explore this new technology.

Thanks in advance!

[Ron P.]

Since this camcorder records to MPEG-2, it would be counter-productive to re-encode to DV, and then to re-encode to MPEG2 to make a DVD. You would suffer 2x degradation of quality. So stick with the MPEG-2 format. Just make sure throughout your process your project properties match that of your video files. There are those that are successful editing MPEG-2.

Even though the most recommended editing format is DV, if you don't have that option then you must do what you have to..

[sjj1805]

Please view:
Which camcorder should I buy?

[Black Lab]

Steve, do you have a link for every question asked on this board?

[daniel]

Don't ask, you'll only get a

Please check this one: "some link back to the forum"


The amazing thing is that he can find them back.
I think he made a database with the whole forum and indexed every word.
I just remember "this has been beaten to death" but that's not very helpful.

[Mark2]

KP, when you get a reply to your question about compatibility of HD video cameras I'll be interested. I am thinking of doing the same but have had trouble recently with DVD footage in VS9. It seems to allow you to edit video but I have problems putting still images and music to the edits. I can only create dvd's from raw footage. I have posted the problem and awaiting response. Hopefully it can be rectified before I decide on a new camera. Have had pleasant results with a Mini DV camera and VS9 until now (but the camera went for a swim)

[maddrummer3301]

.

[neonbob]

kphutch,

You don't need to convert them to dv.avi unless you plan to perform heavy editing on the videos.

.

There is no need to convert AT ALL... in fact converting to avi is quite counter productive (as mentioned above) when the format is already mpeg.

People seem to think that you can not edit, or at least not edit AS WELL in mpeg so it is better to convert to avi.... old school thinking.

Although avi edit is easier on your machine because it does not have to deal with a gop structure in the same way as mpeg, todays amchines and editors have no problems in doing so.

It is preferable to work in avi for as long as possible ONLY when the video originates in avi.

But when you convert mpeg to avi for editing... first there is no magical quality "increase" and you have destroyed the program's ability to use "smart rendering" when you rebuild as an mpeg during render. Smart render is a system built to avoid the actual RENDER on parts of the video that were not changed during edit. These parts would be pretty much lossless (or at least as lossles as one could get) if the video was in the orginal mpeg format (providing bitrate is kept the same)

Not withsatnding, there is alway some kind of loss when you change formats.... so the bottom line is that you will lose more then you will gain by converting a mpeg to avi, then back to mpeg again.

If you are in mpeg format and your wanted end result is mpeg.... then STAY in mpeg.

[Mark2]

You might like to ask those responding whether there are problems editing mpeg video from these cameras ie incorporating music in the edit. As I have prev. said, that is where I found problems. I am certainly interested about the failure rates of HDD cameras. If anyone else has any thoughts about those types of cameras I would be interested b4 I move in that direction as opposed to re-investing in a DV camera at half the cost. Mark

[2Dogs]

It's a real pity that you can't get a hard drive camcorder that stores footage in DV avi format.

Whilst you can do limited editing with mpeg2 files, you cannot escape the fact that mpeg2 is a lossy format - whilst DV is lossless.

There are specialist mpeg2 editing tools that can overcome some of the difficulties associated with editing mpeg2 files - but VS is not one of them.

If you can work within the limitations of always making up DVD's using the same file properties as the mpeg2 source material, and not getting too fancy with filters, overlays etc, then perhaps an mpeg2 hard drive camcorder might suit your needs.

As for the reliability issue - if normal hard drives are used, rather than something proprietary to Sony or whoever the manufacturer, it raises the possibility of easily upgrading/replacing the drive. Contrast that with the difficulties in replacing a failed tape transport mechanism. Just look at how many moving parts there are in the conventional tape mechanism, and compare it with the more or less hermetically sealed environment within a modern hard drive. I for one would love to have a hard drive camcorder, but only one that didn't use a lossy format.

[jchunter]

I am considering my new purchase and am looking at buying a camcorder with a hard drive, specifically the Sony DCR-SR80.
...
I don't do much editing and just add a chapter menu to my DVD projects. The thing I am wondering about is that this camcorder records its video in MPEG-2 format. I've read on this forum that if you want to do any editing, you should capture with AVI/DV. Forgive my lack of knowledge, but is that what I would do with this camcorder?
...
It seems counter-intuitive to have a camcorder that records in MPEG-2, capture on my computer in AVI/DV and then save back to MPEG-2 to burn the project....OR, with my limited editing could I just capture to computer in MPEG-2, edit and burn?

I would caution against making a major investment in any camcorder that is limited to Standard Definition (SD) video. Right now, the market is undergoing a major transition from SD to High Definition (HD). By sometime next year, SD camcorders are going to be about as popular as last week's fish dinner.

As for recording on a hard drive instead of cassette tapes, clearly disks offer greater capacity and much faster capture into the computer. IMO, disk technology is ready for this task.

Finally, the video encoding format:
As NeonBob said, it is wrong headed to think that there could be any benefit in transcoding Mpeg2 to DV, editing, and then transcoding back to Mpeg2 for the DVD burn, The originally encoded Mpeg2 is as good as it gets. Smart rendering will preserve nearly all of this quality.

There is no magic in the DV format. It is not lossless. It compresses video frames using the same intra-frame algorithm as Mpeg2 - the discrete cosine transform (DCT). The usefulness of DV lies in the fact that most DV camcorders record in that format, which makes it easy to capture (copy) into slow computers. However, DV has no role in high definition video editing.

All these considerations would lead one to opt for an HD**2 camcorder (High Definition, Hard Drive), however, the first affordable one on the market (Sony HDR-SR1) encodes the video in a format that can't yet be edited by most editors - AVCHD. The good news is that Video Studio will have a new version in about 5 months that will, almost certainly, support AVCHD.

If it were me, I would wait until next April to get an SR1. If you can't wait, get an HDR-HC3, which records high def video on standard cassettes and can be edited quite well. See HD Tutorial http://phpbb.ulead.com.tw/EN/viewtopic.php?t=13872

[heinz-oz]

......
There is no magic in the DV format. It is not lossless. It compresses video frames using the same intra-frame algorithm as Mpeg2 - the discrete cosine transform (DCT). The usefulness of DV lies in the fact that most DV camcorders record in that format, which makes it easy to capture (copy) into slow computers. However, DV has no role in high definition video editing.
.....

JC, you've done it again, bravo. Instead of giving a novice some decent advice you confuse him more with your, pardon my punt, garbage.

Why don't you just stick to the facts. If DV AVI is as compressed as mpeg2, how come the file size is that much bigger? I admit, it's not lossless but the loss is so minute, it doesn't show even after a re-coding of the file.

When it comes to editing the footage, mpeg2 runs a distant second to DV AVI. BTW, to compare the compression format of this new HighDef camcorder that is going to be editable next April, if we can trust your word on that, with current mpeg2 format is more than bending the truth. It is totally different, that's why today it cannot be edited on consumer type PC systems.

[neonbob]

I admit, it's not lossless but the loss is so minute, it doesn't show even after a re-coding of the file.

Actually heinz... I gotta call you on this one. That was the popular theme on another board and we got into a huge argument that actually forced us into some expermentation.

We took a clip of mpe2 and an exact same clip of DV, and rendered it over and over for 10 generations.... believe it or not, the mpeg faired better in the end.

As far as mpeg quality versus dv quality... it completely depends on the bit rate. Dv is non adjustable but mpeg of course is. At 6000k, there is no comparison. At 25000k mpeg is quite comparable to dv and at 50000k, mpeg quality easily surpasses that of dv.

Dv has been used for many years because of a real "sweet spot"... good quality at a cheap price... better quality would be mpeg at 50M, but then it takes a horse of a machine to run mpeg at that compression. The REAL pros (which is certainly not me) swear that better editing can be attained in low compression I-frame only mpeg.

Normal mpeg (IPB gop) is certainly not as easy to edit as dv but then with today's computers, the operator doesn't even notice the difference

But is dv going away anytime soon... IMO, I certainly doubt it... it's been around for a long time... and it's going to take a long time to die.... if it even does.

[heinz-oz]

I agree with you there. though we were not talking about that at all but a little consumer product HDD camcorder. What is the bitrate on that one? Do you know?

Maybe I'm just stupid but I have yet to see an edited mpeg2 file, edited that is, not just cut and trim, from a consumer type camcorder, not the mega dollar High Def variety, that does not create a problem or two when recoding.

[jchunter]

If DV AVI is as compressed as mpeg2, how come the file size is that much bigger? I admit, it's not lossless ...

As you should know, by now, Mpeg2 employs inter-frame compression, in addition to the intra-frame compression that it shares with DV. This is why Mpeg2 needs a lot less file space than DV.

If you had ever worked with Mpeg2 in Video Studio you would know that it is very editable and shows no visible deterioration unless serially re-rendered many times or with a low bitrate. BTW, did you ever get a current version of Video Studio? Try it before knocking it.