There was a similar issue like this in MF3 that was corrected by a patch. The three current patches for MF5 still do not address this issue. Here it is...
My normal procedure it to copy two 1 hour DV tapes to a DVD-RW and then author them in MF5 to make a new DVD-R with chapters, titles, etc. By accident I stopped my DVD-R deck after the first hour tape instead of pausing it. No problem, I thought, I'll just start a new title and "join" the two later in MF5. No such luck.
On the green line I have both files sitting separately totaling 1 hour 58 mins long at a total size of 4.20 gigs. If I join then I still have 1 hour 58 mins BUT now at 5.45 gigs. Way off the scale. MF5 will not allow me to burn at this size.
I have "do not convert mpeg files" always checked off so MF5 does not recompress the mpegs. What goes in should be what comes out.... no change in quality or size save for any motion thumbnails but I deselect this so it is not an issue.
Tried this on two systems both with the new patches and still the same. MF5 is simply getting confused by the joining process for some reason. If I unjoin them the size goes back to 4.20 gigs. What is really is.
Anyone else had this happen?
BUG(?) Incorrect GB size (green line) reporting in MF5
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Scooterspal
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 1:14 pm
Scooterspal,
First right-click on one of the videos (before joining them) and select "Media Properties". Write down the video & audio properites of your videos (source material) frame size, video_bit_rate, frame rate and audio specs.
When you put the 2 videos on the timeline the estimation is correct (as you stated) because they are dvd compliant mpeg2 files and the option "Do Not Convert Mpeg2 Compliant Files" is checked ON. That would result in 2 separate mpeg2 files on the final dvd.
When you join 2 mpeg2 files together (like your doing) then your telling MF to join the 2 mpeg2 files into 1 mpeg2 file. That would result in 1 continuous mpeg2 file on the final dvd. The 2 mpeg2 files will be re-rendered together into 1 mpeg2 file and be 1 continuous video file. Joining 2 mpeg2 files together isn't as simple as one would think. They need to be re-encoded again. If the 2 mpeg2 files have the same video attributes (which yours should since you used the same recording settings on the recorder) then MF will use smart-render to join the files together into 1 mpeg2 file.
The setting that MF5 uses to perform the estimation is the "Project Properites". When you start a project in MF5 you should first set the project properties equal to the source material your using.
To setup your "Project Properties":
Click on the "GEAR" icon -> "Change Mpeg Settings" -> "Customize" to bring up and change the projects video & audio properties. You usually make these settings to be equal to the source videos. As you change the "Video Bit Rate" Up/Down after exiting that screen you will be MF5 perform a new calculation. The lower the video_bit_rate setting in the project properties the more material you can fit onto the dvd.
After you adjust the video_bit_rate & audio properties to the correct value you will be able to get the estimation to fit on a single layered dvd.
After you adjust the project properties to the correct settings then a better method to create the dvd is to use the "Fast Export Dvd Compliant Video" from the timeline and insert that new file (remove the other joined files). This way you are going into the menu creatiion stage with a mpeg2 dvd compliant file. Depending on how many chapters you make the estimation will change because of the pre-selected background music and motion menus.
Be aware that many recorders use 704x576(pal) or 704x480(ntsc) as a frame_size. If you join these videos then you must change the "Project Properties" also to 704 (the default is 720). Otherwise it will take about 6 hours or so to re-render from 704 to 720 (that's normal). You don't want to change the frame size if yours is 704. 704 is a dvd compliant spec.
Once you start joining/cut/split/trim/add effects to mpeg2 video then you are going into mpeg2 video editing. That in itself is a complex field.
Hope this helps,
etech
MF5 is working correctly. (Joining mpeg2 files isn't always simple as one would think).MF5 is simply getting confused by the joining process for some reason.
First right-click on one of the videos (before joining them) and select "Media Properties". Write down the video & audio properites of your videos (source material) frame size, video_bit_rate, frame rate and audio specs.
When you put the 2 videos on the timeline the estimation is correct (as you stated) because they are dvd compliant mpeg2 files and the option "Do Not Convert Mpeg2 Compliant Files" is checked ON. That would result in 2 separate mpeg2 files on the final dvd.
When you join 2 mpeg2 files together (like your doing) then your telling MF to join the 2 mpeg2 files into 1 mpeg2 file. That would result in 1 continuous mpeg2 file on the final dvd. The 2 mpeg2 files will be re-rendered together into 1 mpeg2 file and be 1 continuous video file. Joining 2 mpeg2 files together isn't as simple as one would think. They need to be re-encoded again. If the 2 mpeg2 files have the same video attributes (which yours should since you used the same recording settings on the recorder) then MF will use smart-render to join the files together into 1 mpeg2 file.
The setting that MF5 uses to perform the estimation is the "Project Properites". When you start a project in MF5 you should first set the project properties equal to the source material your using.
To setup your "Project Properties":
Click on the "GEAR" icon -> "Change Mpeg Settings" -> "Customize" to bring up and change the projects video & audio properties. You usually make these settings to be equal to the source videos. As you change the "Video Bit Rate" Up/Down after exiting that screen you will be MF5 perform a new calculation. The lower the video_bit_rate setting in the project properties the more material you can fit onto the dvd.
After you adjust the video_bit_rate & audio properties to the correct value you will be able to get the estimation to fit on a single layered dvd.
After you adjust the project properties to the correct settings then a better method to create the dvd is to use the "Fast Export Dvd Compliant Video" from the timeline and insert that new file (remove the other joined files). This way you are going into the menu creatiion stage with a mpeg2 dvd compliant file. Depending on how many chapters you make the estimation will change because of the pre-selected background music and motion menus.
Be aware that many recorders use 704x576(pal) or 704x480(ntsc) as a frame_size. If you join these videos then you must change the "Project Properties" also to 704 (the default is 720). Otherwise it will take about 6 hours or so to re-render from 704 to 720 (that's normal). You don't want to change the frame size if yours is 704. 704 is a dvd compliant spec.
Once you start joining/cut/split/trim/add effects to mpeg2 video then you are going into mpeg2 video editing. That in itself is a complex field.
Hope this helps,
etech
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Scooterspal
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 1:14 pm
Hey Etech:
Thanks for the detailed reply. Unfortunately it does not seem to help. Did what you suggested but it still gives too high a GB size and will not burn.
First off, getting the properties off the time line from the single 1 hour mpeg2 file states:
24bits, 720x480, 29.97
Variable bit rate: 8040kbps
This cannot be correct since my DVD-R recorder is set to the 2 hour mode and that means around 4000kbps data rate maximum. So MF5 is getting this information wrong from the start.
Setting the Project Properties has no real effect. I set the data rate as low as it will go (1170kbps) and it states the size needed as 5.05GB.
I don't see any reason why MF5 needs to rerender this project. Just to join two clips that have the identical data rate, frame size, etc. requires that it recompress the video (and reduce the quality level)? This makes no real sense. I can use the mpeg editor in MF5 to trim up scenes and it does not do this. The final size gets smaller... not larger.
Why do separate files require recompression. Can you explain this?
As I stated in my original post, I had the same problem with MF3 misreporting the final size and after installing the patch from the Ulead site this bug was corrected.
If you can try this yourself perhaps you will get similar results.
Appreciate the help.
Thanks for the detailed reply. Unfortunately it does not seem to help. Did what you suggested but it still gives too high a GB size and will not burn.
First off, getting the properties off the time line from the single 1 hour mpeg2 file states:
24bits, 720x480, 29.97
Variable bit rate: 8040kbps
This cannot be correct since my DVD-R recorder is set to the 2 hour mode and that means around 4000kbps data rate maximum. So MF5 is getting this information wrong from the start.
Setting the Project Properties has no real effect. I set the data rate as low as it will go (1170kbps) and it states the size needed as 5.05GB.
I don't see any reason why MF5 needs to rerender this project. Just to join two clips that have the identical data rate, frame size, etc. requires that it recompress the video (and reduce the quality level)? This makes no real sense. I can use the mpeg editor in MF5 to trim up scenes and it does not do this. The final size gets smaller... not larger.
Why do separate files require recompression. Can you explain this?
As I stated in my original post, I had the same problem with MF3 misreporting the final size and after installing the patch from the Ulead site this bug was corrected.
If you can try this yourself perhaps you will get similar results.
Appreciate the help.
Hi,
Because you are working with dvd compliant video you may have to uncheck the "Do Not Convert Compliant Mpeg Video". After unchecking that option under the GEAR icon you should be able to see the estimation change as you do change the video_bit_rate. If you make the project properties equal to the source video the program should still use smart render to join the videos.
What are your audio settings? Lpcm uses the most space on a dvd. Either dolby or mpeg audio adds alot more room on the dvd.
Mpeg editing is complex, depends on what program we use to edit the files. In MF when you multi-trim a mpeg2 file you notice that the size goes down. That's because MF is using that mpeg files video & audio settings directly read from the mpeg file. So after multi-trimming a single mpeg file you can goto "Export" -> "Fast Export" (NOT "Fast Export Dvd Compliant")
and quickly create your new video. (Fast Export Dvd Compliant is a different method and uses the "Project Properites" and a combination of whether the video and/or audio is already dvd compliant).
So as a test I would load only one video, multi-trim it and then click on "Export" -> "Fast Export" (save the video and you will see it being smart-rendered out to a new file. Then remove the original file from the timeline and insert the newly created multi-trimmed video. That would show you an example of smart rendering a mpeg2 file. Usually if the video isn't smart-rendered it can take 10 times longer to convert.
Question: Did you set the project properties to the source videos, then join them and select "Fast Export Dvd Compliant"? See what the size of the new file that is created is because you are joining dvd compliant videos. Make sure your not using lpcm audio which uses alot of space.
I'm using MF5 Plus, you have posted MF5, have you applied the latest patch to MF5?
Sorry for such a long reply. MF contains many IF's when working with mpeg video and the different settings. Sometimes when you continue and create an iso file it ends up being the correct size and the estimation is alittle high. I think that's due to working with compliant video files and MF doesn't know the true average bit rate until it processes them.
etech
Because you are working with dvd compliant video you may have to uncheck the "Do Not Convert Compliant Mpeg Video". After unchecking that option under the GEAR icon you should be able to see the estimation change as you do change the video_bit_rate. If you make the project properties equal to the source video the program should still use smart render to join the videos.
Thats what makes mpeg2 editing/encoding difficult and confusing. Much depends on the mpeg encoder used to create the dvd/mpeg files. What MF is reporting is the Maximum_Bit_Rate of the videos. Like you say the average bit rate is approx 4000kbs. Encoder setttings use Maximum_Bit_Rate, Average_Bit_Rate & Minimum_Bit_Rate.This cannot be correct since my DVD-R recorder is set to the 2 hour mode and that means around 4000kbps data rate maximum. So MF5 is getting this information wrong from the start.
What are your audio settings? Lpcm uses the most space on a dvd. Either dolby or mpeg audio adds alot more room on the dvd.
When you make any changes to a mpeg file it needs to be reconstructed to be a compliant mpeg file. Mpeg files are calculated, complex, compressed data streams. Once you make any changes to the stream it needs to be re-constructed. Many 3rd party programs fast join or save edited mpegs using quick programming tools. Those type of mpeg files aren't compliant and are technically corrupt mpeg files. They will give problems trying to edit them or playing them in a dvd player. Ulead programs use a process called "Smart_Rendering" to reconstruct mpeg files. "Smart Rendering" results in hardly no loss of quality as long as the project settings are equal to the source video(s) settings. Only the edited sections/parts of the mpeg file are actually resampled. If you multi-trim a mpeg file and fast export it the file is reconstructed very fast and not re-sampled.I don't see any reason why MF5 needs to rerender this project. Just to join two clips that have the identical data rate, frame size, etc. requires that it recompress the video (and reduce the quality level)? This makes no real sense. I can use the mpeg editor in MF5 to trim up scenes and it does not do this. The final size gets smaller... not larger.
Why do separate files require recompression. Can you explain this?
Mpeg editing is complex, depends on what program we use to edit the files. In MF when you multi-trim a mpeg2 file you notice that the size goes down. That's because MF is using that mpeg files video & audio settings directly read from the mpeg file. So after multi-trimming a single mpeg file you can goto "Export" -> "Fast Export" (NOT "Fast Export Dvd Compliant")
and quickly create your new video. (Fast Export Dvd Compliant is a different method and uses the "Project Properites" and a combination of whether the video and/or audio is already dvd compliant).
So as a test I would load only one video, multi-trim it and then click on "Export" -> "Fast Export" (save the video and you will see it being smart-rendered out to a new file. Then remove the original file from the timeline and insert the newly created multi-trimmed video. That would show you an example of smart rendering a mpeg2 file. Usually if the video isn't smart-rendered it can take 10 times longer to convert.
Question: Did you set the project properties to the source videos, then join them and select "Fast Export Dvd Compliant"? See what the size of the new file that is created is because you are joining dvd compliant videos. Make sure your not using lpcm audio which uses alot of space.
I'm using MF5 Plus, you have posted MF5, have you applied the latest patch to MF5?
Sorry for such a long reply. MF contains many IF's when working with mpeg video and the different settings. Sometimes when you continue and create an iso file it ends up being the correct size and the estimation is alittle high. I think that's due to working with compliant video files and MF doesn't know the true average bit rate until it processes them.
etech