Audio settings help please

[kphutch]

I just downloaded the free trial for VideoStudio 10+. I have 50 hours of tapes that I need to preserve on DVD. They run the gamut from VHS, 8mm, Hi8 to Digital 8. I read the entire 9 page "sticky" to try to educate myself before attempting my first DVD project. I gather that I can capture to MPEG with the Digital 8. The others are all analog and will need a DV/AVI capture.

I think I have a pretty good handle on things but am confused about the audio settings. This was touched on briefly in the "sticky", but I'd like clarification. I live in the US and use NTSC. What type of audio settings should I use? Keep in mind that all these videos are of kids and family. I'll be putting 2 hours on each DVD that I burn. I want to make sure that I will be able to hear the audio when playing my DVD's on my household DVD players.

Some people have said to avoid MPEG. LCPM and Dolby would be my other choices. I've read that LCPM takes up the most space....should I be concerned about this seeing that I am cramming 2 hours on to each DVD?

I'd love to hear from people using NTSC and your audio results playing your DVD's on normal, inexpensive $50 DVD players. I hope the Trial VideoStudio 10+ works for me......nice to be able to try things out before committing to purchase.

Thanks in advance for your help!

[Ron P.]

Welcome to the forums Kphutch..

First since it is a trial version, you are not going to be able to use Dolby. So while using it, you're limitied to either LPCM, or MPEG audio. The latter does not fit in to the NTSC DVD standard, so the audio may not play on all DVD players. Now better news is, most cheap DVD players will play a frisbee if you could cram it in there... It seems that the expensive ones barely play burned discs.

If you have a DVD +/- RW then try burning a short video onto one, using MPEG audio and see what happens. If it does not work then you are limited to the LPCM audio, until you purchase VS10 +.

If you are going to put 2 hrs onto a single layer DVD, then LPCM certainly will be important. You will need to reduce the bitrate of your video to make room for the audio.

You should be able to capture MPEG for the analouge as well, and as long as whatever means you are using to capture will allow it.

[Ken Berry]

Re capturing your collection, since some of it is Digital 8mm, can we assume you still have a Digital 8 camera? If so, depending on the model (and whether it is still working! ), there is a good chance you might be able to use it to convert at least your analogue 8mm and possibly even your Hi8 tapes as well, to DV format and transmit them via Firewire to your computer. Sony in particular included a number of models in their Digital 8 collection which can do this, including some of the early models. And the Digital 8 cameras normally use a mini Firewire connection, which your camera manual is likely to call an i-Link connection. (DV format and a firewire captureare two important factors in getting a high quality capture.)

I say this because I specifically bought a Sony Digital 8 DCR-TRV480E a year ago precisely to transfer my own 8mm analogue collection using DV as the format. The results have been truly excellent -- even better than I had been hoping. My camera will also play back Hi8 tapes as well as the standard 8mm ones (plus, of course digital 8 tapes!) And it can also be connected by an AV cord to my VCR for transfer of VHS tapes, again in DV format -- though given the original quality of the VHS tapes, it would probably have been sufficient to do this in DVD mpeg-2 quality.

And for what it is worth, since I live in a PAL country, I endorse Ron's comments fully. (MPEG Layer 2 audio is in fact part of the PAL DVD standard, so that's where things differ.) With LPCM audio, to cram 2 hours of your edited video onto a single layer DVD, you would need to reduce the bitrate -- and corresponding quality -- to around 4000 kbps or below. In my own case, using my DV transfer via the Sony camera, I found the initial quality so good that I use no lower than 6000 kbps when converting the DV to mpeg-2. But with this bitrate, using LPCM audio, I would at most be only able to squeeze 90 minutes on a disc. Instead, I use Dolby 2 channel stereo (with VS10+) and usually get nearly 1 hr 45 minutes per disc. And as I say, with that bitrate and initial DV Firewire capture, the end result is truly excellent.

However, I experimented also with lower bitrates to squeeze more on to a DVD. When using 4000 kbps, I found there was a noticeable degradation in quality when compared to that at 6000 kbps. Other people might still find it acceptable, though I did not. Since blank DVDs are very cheap, I have preferred a few more discs and the higher quality. After all, they are your memories!

Anyway, lets hope that your testing of VS10 induces you to buy the full version and its full Dolby licence. And that your old Digital 8 camera is still working and allows you to use it like mine. If not, I hope you have checked whether your digital video camera allows 'pass through' of analogue source material, converting it to DV for transmission to your computer. Or that you may be considering a capture device which allows you to capture using DV format, as opposed to mpeg-2. Unfortunately, such devices tend to be on the expensive side.

If you can only afford one that can capture to mpeg-2, then only consider those which have a hardware chip which does the conversion from analogue to digital in the device itself, rather than imposing what could be a heavy strain on your computer resources to capture direct to mpeg-2. A great and relatively inexpensive contender in this field is the Ads DVDExpress DX2. You can read a review of it in a relatively recent PC World at http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,12551 ... ticle.html Take note of the reviewer's advice to capture using high quality settings.

[kphutch]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your replies. Fortunately, my camcorder (Sony TRV-480) does allow me to transfer analog in DV format. I guess I'm confused about analog vs. digital. VHS, 8mm and Hi8 are all analog formats, right? When I connect my VHS player to my computer, I run it through my camcorder (A/V in -- DV out). This is supposed to output analog images and sound in digital format. I have read the Sony manual and can't tell if the same holds true when I play my 8mm and Hi8 tapes?? I assume it does and they are also being transferred in DV format.

So based on all this info, I surmise than when I capture (playing everything through the Sony Trv-480), I can capture to Mpeg. My computer is 3Ghz, 1Gb mem, 100Gb free hard drive space. Am I correct in this assumption?

If correct and I capture to Mpeg, should I set the capture properties to digital settings (i.e. "Lower Field First for digital capture") even though my original source is analog?

Sorry for making this so complicated......I guess what it boils down to is this: By using the Sony Trv-480 as my capture device for all my analog video, it is in essence no longer analog ---- therefore I can treat all my projects as if I am transferring digital and capture to Mpeg in all cases.

If I'm off base with this understanding, please let me know. Thanks again for all your suggestions!

[Ken Berry]

You will see from my post that I have exactly the same camera. And you are correct in all your assumptions.

The only one I take issue with is your assumption that the best capture format is mpeg-2. Your camera can convert the analogue input from VCR/Hi8/8mm to DV format for transmission over firewire to the computer. In my opinion, DV is a less complex format to both capture and edit. Asking the camera to convert the analogue signal is one thing. Asking your computer to then convert an incoming DV signal from the camera (as that is what it would be over firewire) to mpeg-2 on the fly is a much bigger ask, though by the looks of things, your computer should be up to it, particularly if you keep the capture lengths to amounts less than, say, 10 or 15 minutes. Otherwise, you could find the transfer buffer filling up and the capture stopping until the buffer can be emptied again.

That would not happen if you simply captured in DV format. Then you do the editing in DV format, as I have already suggested, and only then go to Share > Create Video File > DVD to convert it to DVD compliant mpeg-2. That is our recommended procedure for capturing digital video from a mini-DV digital camera. Your Sony for this purpose can be treated as a similar camera...

The only downside to capturing DV format is that files are much larger than mpeg-2. One hour of DV takes up around 13GB of hard disc space. An mpeg-2 file will be much smaller.

There is quite a debate as to whether mpeg-2 should be edited much, if at all, though some argue that with suitable precautions, it can be edited successfully and produce good results. A lot more people, though, encounter a variety of problems along the way. Those problems are for the most part not present if your capture and edit in DV format, and only convert this to mpeg-2 when the editing is finished and you are ready to produce a DVD-compliant mpeg-2 for burning.

[kphutch]

Ken,

The only reason why I wanted to capture to Mpeg is this statement from the "recommended procedure":

"Capture Guidelines Standard Definition: (For high definition capture, see HD Tutorial link above.)
Capture Mpeg2 format ONLY if you have a fast computer (>2.5 GHz, 1GB RAM, disk with > 20 GB of available unfragmented space). If you capture in DVD-Compliant Mpeg2 format, the whole video editing process to DVD burn will be faster and simpler. "


With over 50 hours of video to burn, when I read "faster and simpler" it catches my attention!! Is there a huge difference in time for a 2 hour video project between capturing to DV vs. Mpeg?

[daniel]

When you capture to MPEG the conversion is done real-time
When you render that from AVI/DV in the editing program it lasts several hours, depending on your machine.

If you capture to MPEG the quality is affected by the time the computer has to compress, ignoring specific hardware gadgets.
At two hours per disk (i.e. low bit rate) the compression algorithm has to "give up" faster so it could stop with a so-so quality.
An off-line compression with dual pass variable will allow higher peaks with similar size.

But later the rendering from MPEG to DVD format is much faster if Smart Rendering is checked.

As Ken said, if you don't wish to edit (copy as is, or with minimal cuts/rearrange) then your computer may be able to do it. Try and see for yourself.
Slow processing from DV WILL give better results, but maybe you don't need it. It's a personal preference.

[kphutch]

Daniel,

I am mainly interested in just getting all this video preserved on DVD. I don't plan on doing much, if any editing. Here is a quote from the "recommended procedure":


Edit Phase

Note: If you captured in DVD-Compliant Mpeg2 format and do NOT want to edit your video, you can skip this Edit phase and the next (Create Video File) and continue with "Burn DVD Phase" to immediately burn a DVD.


So if I capture to Mpeg, it sounds like I could skip the step of copying to a file and just go right to the burning. Do you think this would work if I set the bit rate to 4000 kbps and force 2 hours of video to a DVD? I know I could experiment, but each try sounds like it will take hours. Obviously, I'd like to eliminate as many problems ahead of time if possible

[Black Lab]

When you capture to MPEG the conversion is done real-time
When you render that from AVI/DV in the editing program it lasts several hours, depending on your machine.

No sure what you mean by several hours, but my rendering time is usually 1-1.5 times the length of my project. Generally, I can render a one hour project of avi's to an avi file, render that to an mpeg file, and burn (the recommended procedure) in about 2 hours.

I know I could experiment, but each try sounds like it will take hours. Obviously, I'd like to eliminate as many problems ahead of time if possible

Don't experiment with your entire 2 hour project. Try a 15 minute project first and see which process works best for you.[/quote]

[Trevor Andrew]

Hi

For top quality I would, use the camcorder as throughput to firewire.

Capture to format DV, Dv-Avi at 13 Gb per hour.

Edit my project in this format

I would Share---Create Video File to Ntcs-Dvd using a lower bit rate, 4000 kbps for 2 hours.
This is the section that will take some time to render, depends on many variables.

Use the rendered file in a new project to burn a dvd.

Share Create Disc-Add Video

Give mpeg capture a go:-

You could try capturing to Mpeg 2, but this requires transcoding during capture. I would change the capture bit rate to 4000.
The render after editing should be quicker.
Select capture format Ntsc-Dvd

Do not use capture format Mpeg

Trevor

[daniel]

Daniel,
So if I capture to Mpeg, it sounds like I could skip the step of copying to a file and just go right to the burning. Do you think this would work if I set the bit rate to 4000 kbps and force 2 hours of video to a DVD? I know I could experiment, but each try sounds like it will take hours. Obviously, I'd like to eliminate as many problems ahead of time if possible

I think Trevor's answer is pretty final on everyone's advice here.

The reason to use two steps (capture to AVI, render) instead of direct to MPEG is because off-line compression, as opposed to on-the-fly during transfer will give better results because slower is better.
(With the usual PC unequipped with a hardware encoder.)

If the difference will be very visible, and if so does it bother you, is impossible to determine before we walk a mile in your boots.

Also as someone has written earlier, if you capture in small batches, the input buffer will accomodate your captured raw data and allow the encoder to fall behind, preserving reasonable quality, especially if you don't push the quality slider to 100% and your Quad-CPU quad-core MOBO exceeds 10 GHz :-))


(I'm quitting this now because some grumpy from Birmingham could warn I talk too much.)