Trouble conv. VHS to DVD

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:18 pm

I've tried searching the forums and can't come up with anything good. I've even read the digitalfaq.com page that someone posted.

I'm using VS 10. I used my VCR's RCA jack into Sony Digital 8 Camcorder (not using my HD HC3 for this) , out of camcorder thru firewire into cpu.

I capture with VS10 using basically the "DVD" setting which, if I understand correctly, is 720x480, mpeg2?, 8000 bit rate fixed. It comes out pretty good quality. Roughly 2-2.5 hours of video is roughly 10 gig.

I minimally edit/clean up the start and finish points, then render it (thru create video) to DVD: NTSC (I'm not sure if I even need to do this) which takes forever (roughly 2 hours) and it ends up basically the same size. It still looks good/same when viewing it.

I then go to create disc and try to burn it DVD but the file is too big. Some of my vids (more towards an 1.5 hours) are approximately 6 gig.

I have never converted from VHS and am very much a newb. Am I doing any of this right?

1)Am i wasting my time rendering after capture but before burn? i.e. should I just clean it up/edit then go straight to burn?

2)Am I using the right settings to obtain the best quality?

3)Is this normal and am I only supposed to be able to fit about an hour per DVD? ...meaning I have to split them up?

4)I noticed that it captures with a fixed bit rate of 8000 but renders at VBR with a max of 8000. Which is better? Which should I be using?

5)Also, is there a significant advantage to buying high quality DVD's to burn these onto-is there really a significant longetivity advantage?

I know these are a lot of questions but I did read quite a bit and to be honest, much of this is confusing to a newb.

Thanks for your help.

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:42 pm

Forget for a moment that your video is on VHS. You are connecting the VHS by way of a pass through using your camcorder and a firewire cable.
Therefore treat everything as though it was a straight forward camcorder recording and 'Transfer' to your computer using DV (avi) type 1.

Follow the procedures and recommendatrions set out in
From camcorder to DVD with VideoStudio

TDK1044 · Post by **TDK1044** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:46 pm

Some of the opinions here are by definition going to be subjective. Also, you didn't mention which audio compression you're using and that obviously has a big effect on file size.

Basically, I would use the MPEG2 NTSC DVD setting with LPCM audio if you have the hard disk space, and with MPEG audio if you don't. VBR will give you a smaller file size than CBR with little or no quality loss in my experience.

Do your minimal editing and make a video file using 'Smart Render' and also use the 'same as project properties' setting. That way, you should render reasonably quickly and lose no quality.

At the burn stage, using NTSC DVD with LPCM audio, you will only get an hour on a DVD disk. If you change the audio to Dolby Digital audio, you will obviously get more footage on the disk.

There are many variables here. You could reduce from 8000 bit rate to 7000 and hardly notice, as well as looking at the audio options mentioned.

I would experiment with a five minute section of your VHS footage until you're happy with the result from start to finish and then make your full project.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 6:25 pm

Hi

To fit 2.5 hours to a disc you have to reduce the Bit Rate to about 3500 kbps.
Changing the Audio to Digital Dolby will give more room for the video.

Using a Bit Rate Calculator may help:-
http://dvd-hq.info/Calculator.html

As a Guide
Using 8000 kbps is top quality DVD for one hour
Using 6000 kbps is good quality DVD for 90 minutes
Using 4000 kbps is good quality VHS for 120 minutes

If I were capturing to mpeg, I would select DVD as the format.
Change the capture properties using the options cogwheel.
Similar to these:-

MPEG Files
24 Bits, 720 x 480, 29.97 fps
Lower Field First
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: 3500 kbps
Audio data rate: 128 kbps
Dolby Digital Audio, 48.0 KHz, Stereo

Edit the project then Share Create Video File—Same as First Clip
Will ensure the properties remain the same.

Start a new project using these properties, Share create Disc—Add Video.

Hope this Helps

Trevor

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:42 am

I really appreciate all the good info. This is the kind of stuff that is not that easy to find on other sites and people offer opinion as if fact.

So dolby digital is a downgrade in quality then?

Also, I think you guys made it pretty clear about the bitrate. So 8000 is top quality dvd for one hour but 4000 is vhs for one hour.

I guess my question is am I serving a purpose or just wasting space by using 8000? ...meaning considering the source is so crappy is there going to be no upgrade in quality (on the dvd) from 4000 to 8000?

I would rather keep the quality and just burn multiple dvd's if it makes a difference.

Also, I didn't see where anybody addressed the supposed top quality "archive" dvd's. Does anybody know if they really make a difference and will 'regular' dvd's really break down over time?

Thanks again...

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:02 am

Dolby Digital is a compressed format of audio.
Having said that almost every Hollywood blockbuster seems to use Dolby Digital so why worry. The advantages of the smaller audio size are that more room is available on the DVD disc for video.

Anyway, we are talking final stages when we mention things like Dolby.
Your workflow using the equipment you have mentioned above is

Capture to the Hard drive via firewire in Dv type 1.
here your Digital Camcorder is taking your analogue input and behaving like a hardware digital encoder and converting to a digital format.

Accept the default settings during the capture to your hard drive.
No Dolby at this point because Dolby is a format that works with your MPEG file. Your sound at this point should be in PCM.

Now do any editing you wish - cut out adverts, get rid of unwanted stuff at the start and end of the video, generally spruce it up a bit.

Next thing is to create a DVD compliant MPEG2 file. This is where all of those bit rate settings come into play. This is where you choose the video bit rate according to the length of your video. Choosing a bit rate that is too high is wasteful because you cannot put quality in that isn't there in the first place.

The lower the bit rate the longer your video will be (30 mins, 1 hour, 3 hours and so on.) This is also the point that you chose your audio
LPCM, Dolby and so on.

Having created that MPEG2 file you then clear the timeline by selecting File | New

You go to the share tab and select create disc. Now import that MPEG2 video file, create your chapters and DVD Menus and burn.

For the answer to your question "How long will a DVD last?" see this link:
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/spe ... gevity.php

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:06 am

Hey guys.

I've been very busy and am just getting back into the thick of this.

At first, I had trouble coverting DV to DVD of equal quality. I guess I missed that 'quality' slider in the mp2 settings that defaults to 70. After changing it to 100 it seemed to be indistinguishable from the DV. Also using dolby really does save a lot of space. Roughly 30 mins @ 8000 bit rate VBR and DD is only about 1.6 gig.

I discovered a tidbit with media player classic that messed me up for quite some time when I was trying to get the settings right. I was testing settings and would open 2 instances of MPC. I put the videos side by side to compare the quality. I found out (by accident) that when you open two instances, the first video (that you open) will have better color and the 2nd will appear slightly more washed out. I was opening the DV first and comparing to different settings. When I opened the DV second and it had the washed out look, I realized. It must be some sort of memory allocation issue or something.

Anyhow, I think I got the DV to DVD pretty much down but I still have a bit of trouble with the VHS to DV to DVD. As stated above, I'm going VCR thru Sony-RCA to cam cable to Digital video camera thru firewire to cpu. I do what you guys said-capture the same as DV then create video into mp2 (8000 VBR, 100 quality, lower field first). I then burn to DVD.

The sharpness and general quality of the DVD (or mp2) look about as good as the VHS but the color looks washed out. I hooked the VCR back up to the TV and played the DVD at the same time switching back and forth. The DVD doesn't look horrible but the color is definitely richer and deeper on the VHS.

I thought maybe it was the cable (sony rca to cam cable) but I don't think so. The one I have doesn't look too cheap but I realized I have a monster cable that I haven't tried yet. When it's playing on the LCD on the camera it looks great-much better than the VCR playing the tape to the TV. I attribute this to the bright SMALL LCD screen. (?)

Doubting that its the cable, the only thing I can think is that it's the analog to digital conversion that's happening in the camera itself. I can't figure any other reason for the loss in color quality.

Do you guys have similar results going VHS to DVD? Is that generally how it goes or is the Sony camcorder a poor choice to use as a converter and something else may do better? Or am I off base in assuming that it's the camera conversion that's the problem?

Again, it's not horrible and I can live with it if I have to but I want to get it setup the best way I can before capturing tons of VHS tapes.

Thanks again.

raygo · Post by **raygo** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 6:15 am

Personally,

I prefer using the Plextor M402U digital convertor when I capture from a VCR or my old 8mm camcorder tapes.

http://www.plextor.com/english/products/M402U.htm

Everything is converted while you capture.
Hardware Encodes to DivX? MPEG-4, MPEG-2/DVD, MPEG-1/VCD Formats

the end result after burning to a dvd looks almost as good as the original VHS tape, or when converting a 8mm tape, pretty darn good concidering that I have some 10 yr old Sony camcorder 8 mm tapes that look as sharp/clear today as they did back then. that surprised me when I viewed them for the firstst time in 10 yrs. no degrading at all..
[some compression when I burned to disk since conversion was to mpeg]
but as I stated, pretty darn good results for analog source material.
Convertor connects to pc via USB.

Only other thing is you have to use Ulead VS 8 SE [comes bundled] when using the Plextor as it will not capture with 9 or 10.
But, Once you capture and save file, then you can import into any Ulead version for editing which is what I do.
Plextor does make the best Convertor that I know of.. fast and simple to use.

roy wood · Post by **roy wood** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:38 am

Hi Trevor, would you mind completing the list for 8mm and Hi8 to get the best possible quality without wasting space please.

As a Guide
Using 8000 kbps is top quality DVD for one hour
Using 6000 kbps is good quality DVD for 90 minutes
Using 4000 kbps is good quality VHS for 120 minutes

ebone · Post by **ebone** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 12:49 am

I appreciate the info Raygo but I'm not sure I should go the plextor route. I'll have to buy additional equipment, it's a lot more work, and it sounds as if I'm getting similar quality now. Your way sounds like a good way to go, but I think I'd be in the same boat if I switched. Remember, I'm getting near the quality of the original VHS as well-only the colors seem more dull.

If that's just the way it is, then I'm fine with that. I just don't/didn't know if I was doing something wrong that was easily corrected. If so, I'd like to have it corrected before capturing 50 or so VHS tapes.

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 1:54 am

roy wood wrote:Hi Trevor, would you mind completing the list for 8mm and Hi8 to get the best possible quality without wasting space please.

As a Guide
Using 8000 kbps is top quality DVD for one hour
Using 6000 kbps is good quality DVD for 90 minutes
Using 4000 kbps is good quality VHS for 120 minutes

I think you've misinterpreted the list.

By Top quality DVD - this means the sort of quality you would expect if you bought it from a shop.
By Good Quality VHS this means the sort of quality you would expect from a video played from a VHS.

What you need to do is work backwards. Start at the end of your project by asking yourself how much video do I want to squeeze onto the DVD disc, 1 hour, 2 hours, 3, 4?

The more you squeeze on, the lower the quality so you go down from top quality DVD to VHS.

One of my sons got hold of a VCD disc that held two hours of video. Thats 2 hours on a 700 MB CD disc. I was quite surprised at the quality, not nearly so bad as I was anticipating.

A DVD disc is about the size of 6 CD discs and so using the settings on that particular VCD disc you could squash 12 hours of video onto a standard 4.3 GB DVD disc.

I'm not saying go out and do that, in fact I think anything above 3 hours is pushing it, besides discs are so cheap nowadays.

When deciding how much to squeeze onto a disc you also need to take into account the equipment that will be used to view the completed video.

A small portable TV set will provide a sharper picture than a 48" Monster.
Where you could possibly get away with 12 hours on a single DVD disc on the portable, the same disc would probably appear horrid on a 48" screen.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:31 am

Hi

To help you decide just what the bit-rate should be, there are calculators to do just that.

I like this one, useful reading too:-

http://dvd-hq.info/Calculator.html

Hope this Helps

Trevor

roy wood · Post by **roy wood** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 6:53 pm

I think you've misinterpreted the list.
By Top quality DVD - this means the sort of quality you would expect if you bought it from a shop.
By Good Quality VHS this means the sort of quality you would expect from a video played from a VHS.

Hi Trevor thanks for your reply but I think I'm either misunderstanding the Bitrate and Quality issue or not posing my question clearly.

I have tapes of 4 formats VHS,8mm,Hi8 and DV.

When I'm working with DV I set My'Project' and 'Create Video File' settings to 8000kbps and the slider to 100% Quality to get the best picture quality from my video.

However when I work with say 8mm I'm aware from the outset that the source material is inferior to DV.
So is it still beneficial to use the same high Bitrate and Quality settings as I would for DV.

If Yes I'm quite happy to do so.

If No what would the best optimum be for 8mm and Hi8 Please.

Black Lab · Post by **Black Lab** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:04 pm

However when I work with say 8mm I'm aware from the outset that the source material is inferior to DV.
So is it still beneficial to use the same high Bitrate and Quality settings as I would for DV.

You can, but it's not going to make the quality any better and you'll be taking up space on the DVD.

As was stated earlier, you can probably use 4000 kbps for VHS and it will give you good VHS quality and allow you up to 2 hours on the DVD.

It is all really subjective and to what you consider good quality. You may be able to get away with 5000 or 6000 kbps for the Hi8. It's all in the eye of the beholder.

If I were you I would make several short projects, say 10 minutes in length. Start with your VHS footage and do one project with 4000 kbps, another with 5000, etc. Determine which gives you the best quality. Then do the same with your Hi8 and 8mm footage. Then you'll at least have a basis for future projects.

Trevor Andrew · Post by **Trevor Andrew** » Thu Dec 07, 2006 7:59 pm

roy wood wrote:
I have tapes of 4 formats VHS,8mm,Hi8 and DV.

When I'm working with DV I set My'Project' and 'Create Video File' settings to 8000kbps and the slider to 100% Quality to get the best picture quality from my video.

However when I work with say 8mm I'm aware from the outset that the source material is inferior to DV.
So is it still beneficial to use the same high Bitrate and Quality settings as I would for DV.

If Yes I'm quite happy to do so.

YES

The only criteria is 'will it fit to a dvd'

The higher the bit rate the bigger the file.

Produce a file over 4,3 Gb and it will not fit to disc.

Now you have to reduce the bit rate to reduce the file size.
This in turn reduces the quality.

Does that make sense.

Use the highest bit rate available to create a file just under 4.3 Gb

Trevor