Bad behavior and Crash in very specific case

[pkimelma]

I have MPEG4 files. When I add them to the timeline, all is fine, and I can create a DVD. If I add a video filter to a clip, it is OK. But, if I have the video filters showing (in the upper right pane), and press play of the clip, the pause button does not work. At the end of that play or the next, it crashes. It happens every time. If I carefully make sure I select video vs. video filters, then it all works fine. So, this cannot be a "corrupted" file.
I am using MS Windows, Video Studio 10 plus (I need plus for the MPEG4), with a big graphics card (NVIDIA). No performance problems.
Any thoughts on how to prevent this? It is frustrating to have to remember to deselect the video-filter pane each time I want to play a clip.

[Ron P.]

Hi Pkimelma,

First, you are attempting to Edit a very highly compressed format, which is not intended for editing. VS is capable of producing MPEG4, which probably should be done from an DV/AVI file.

Next, what happens when you Preview your project in Project mode, VS has to "render on the fly". Since your clips are highly compressed, then it has a tremendous amount of data it must throw together instantly, to provide you with some resemblance of your video project. You say you have a big Nvidia card, well it still isn't going to be big enough to handle that sort of processing. There are several members that have real impressive systems, dual-core processing, multiple HDD, systems that are fine-tuned just for editing, and they are still going to experience the same type problems. Previewing in VS with DV, MPEG1, MPEG-2 or whatever is just not going to be smooth. Then when you thow at it something like MPEG4, it's going to say Enough is enough already, and crash.

You might try converting your clips prior to importing them into VS. There are several conversion utilities available. One such program is called Super. A link to it can be found under our Products Tutorial section, General Information, Free Stuff.

Ron P.

[pkimelma]

Hi vidoman. My understanding is that VS 10+ pre-expands the video files into the temp area when I drop them. It then updates what it needs to as I add changes. I can certainly see it do this by going to the work area, where my files are not copied but converted into some huge internal format (which is fine as I have many gigs).

I note that I can drop a bunch of MPEG4 files and preview them with no problems (including with filters and transitions). It only causes problems when the filters are visible. That is, the rubics-cube like icons are showing in the selector window. As long as they are not visible, it all works fine. If I play the project (so the filters are applied), it still shows at full speed and the buttons all work and it does not crash. It is only when the selector is set to "Video filters" vs. "Video" or "image" or whatever.

As to preconverting, I can do this, but it seems a real shame to have to do this each time. The nice thing about this camera is that it produces high rate MPEG4 files that can be used directly (they are on an SDIO card). I have no capture step, as I just copy off the card to my hard disk and then load them (or drop) into VS 10.

[jchunter]

Pkimelma,
I am fascinated that you are getting good results with Mpeg4. Many users have reported problems and I have tried Mpeg4 high definition editing with no success.

Please list your complete set of Mpeg4 video and audio properties of the source file. What are the Project Property settings? What is the source of your Mpeg4 video - camcorder? Make and model?

[pkimelma]

I am using a Sanyo XACTI C5 video and still camera. It stores onto SDIO cards (I have 1GB card and that is about 40 minutes of video at 30fps and 640x480).

VS10 reports my files as:
MPEG-4 ASP Video
24 bits, 640x480
29.970 frames/sec
3000 Kbps -- this is wrong, it is actually VBR of 6000, but VS maps it to closest it knows
Audio:
MPEG AAC Audio
48000 Hz, 16 Bit, Stereo
128 Kbps

My project is MPEG files, NTSC drop frame (29.97 fps)
24 bits, 720x480, 29.97 fps
(DVD-NTSC), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 8000 kbps)
LPCM Audio, 48000 Hz, Stereo

--

I will note that the up-sampling to 720x480 is a bit of a problem as it affects image quality a bit (640 to 720 does not leave room for doing a great job). I wanted to letterbox it, but I cannot find any control to do so. I have considered using a tool to do this. I did not see any reason to go to 1024i since I prefer progressive over interlaced, and the upsampler does not seem very good in VS.

[jchunter]

You are the first user to have good luck with Mpeg4, so we want to record your techniques, to help others. I'm ignoring your filter problem for the time being. I hope that you will be able to experiment a bit to see how best to handle the Xacti's mpeg4.

Yes, changing from 640x480 to 720x480 could pose problems. So could accidentally cross rendering field order. (I assume the field order is Frame-Based but you never know....) Be sure to create a DVD compliant mpeg2 video file prior to trying to burn the DVD and try different settings, using the Custom button.

When I checked, the mfg. says that Super High Quality is: 640 x 480 (SHQ 30fps 3Mbps) up to 1 hour. 3Mbps is probably variable, so the instantaneous bitrate could be much higher. Also, 3Mbps of highly compressed Mpeg4 could be as good as 6 - 8Mbps when converted to Mpeg2, as you have to do, to burn it on a DVD.

Now, I usually edit with the project properties set to exactly match the captured video file properties. OTOH, you are getting good results when you set the project props to the target format. Have you tried to set project props to Mpeg4? Any difference in playback / letterboxing? This might assist with your filter problem...

[pkimelma]

You are the first user to have good luck with Mpeg4, so we want to record your techniques, to help others. I'm ignoring your filter problem for the time being. I hope that you will be able to experiment a bit to see how best to handle the Xacti's mpeg4.

OK, fair enough.

Yes, changing from 640x480 to 720x480 could pose problems. So could accidentally cross rendering field order. (I assume the field order is Frame-Based but you never know....) Be sure to create a DVD compliant mpeg2 video file prior to trying to burn the DVD and try different settings, using the Custom button.

The field order is frame based, but VS picked that up from the MPEG4 file which tells you the default field order. I have created multiple standard DVD MPEG2 files, usually as a straight burn to DVD, but also as a file to see how it looks on QuickTime/MediaPlayer. That all works fine.

When I checked, the mfg. says that Super High Quality is: 640 x 480 (SHQ 30fps 3Mbps) up to 1 hour. 3Mbps is probably variable, so the instantaneous bitrate could be much higher. Also, 3Mbps of highly compressed Mpeg4 could be as good as 6 - 8Mbps when converted to Mpeg2, as you have to do, to burn it on a DVD.

Yes, I used 8 for the DVD since MPEG2 is highly lossy otherwise. The 3Mbps is average rate for MPEG4, but allows for much higher. The XACTI uses a larger RAM buffer to ensure that it can stream buffer fully. Also, by using a fast SDIO card, you do not get loss. That is, the XACTI engine will back down if the SDIO is behind (you can tell by the red led, which blinks using a stutter pattern when the flash is behind). Since high speed 1GB SDIO cards are cheap (<$40 these days), there is no problem.

Now, I usually edit with the project properties set to exactly match the captured video file properties. OTOH, you are getting good results when you set the project props to the target format. Have you tried to set project props to Mpeg4? Any difference in playback / letterboxing? This might assist with your filter problem...

I had not considered this. I will try making the project output MPEG4 vs. DVD-MPEG2. The question is whether VS even allows letterboxing. I cannot find anything to suggest that (their manuals and all are terrible in terms of any details). But, I guess I could produce a full MPEG4 file and then process through another tool which letterboxes and makes into MPEG2, before making the DVD. I will try that.

[jchunter]

VS does handle letterboxing well in the cases that I have run - mainly when integrating 4:3 images with 16:9 video, which leaves black borders on the sides of the images, which are displayed in proper aspect ratio.

I would not bother creating an entire mpeg4 video file of the project because that could take a lot of time and might not work well. Instead, try Creating the DVD-compliant mpeg2 Video file directly from the project. Then burn the DVD from the Video file. It will not take any longer than the way you have been doing it and then you will be able to inspect the video file with Virtual Dub to see how things came out.

BTW, I often drop in a standard ISO 12233 resolution chart either at the beginning or end of most of my projects, so that I can measure any loss of quality at any stage of the workflow. You can download from http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/respat/index.html

[pkimelma]

VS does handle letterboxing well in the cases that I have run - mainly when integrating 4:3 images with 16:9 video, which leaves black borders on the sides of the images, which are displayed in proper aspect ratio.

But, that only works when it specifically cares that the aspect ratio is changed (from NTSC to widescreen). It does not seem to offer this when the output is DVD 720p from some other aspect ratio input.

I would not bother creating an entire mpeg4 video file of the project because that could take a lot of time and might not work well. Instead, try Creating the DVD-compliant mpeg2 Video file directly from the project. Then burn the DVD from the Video file. It will not take any longer than the way you have been doing it and then you will be able to inspect the video file with Virtual Dub to see how things came out.

I have done this. But, there did not seem to be any advantage over creating the DVD directly, since the majority of time appeared to be rendering the menus and and titles and the like. That is, the conversion from MPEG4 to MPEG2 was either done in advance or is fast. The rendering of DVD menus and transitions seems to be very slow. I am quite surprised at how long the titles take. I did an MPEG2 conversion from text a few years ago (in C) and it was very easy and fast, so I really do not understand the issue here.

As to keeping in MPEG4, this was your suggestion I thought: "Have you tried to set project props to Mpeg4?". If not, then no point as you say.

BTW, I often drop in a standard ISO 12233 resolution chart either at the beginning or end of most of my projects, so that I can measure any loss of quality at any stage of the workflow. You can download from http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/respat/index.html

The problem with this is that I need one in the incoming format (640x480) to see the effects of the upsampling (and more importantly, change in aspect ratio). I know DVDs have some provisions for non-square pixels, but I doubt that 1.125 ratio is an option (720/640).

[jchunter]

The great advantage of creating a video file prior to burning is that you can inspect the video file if/when things go wrong.

You can speed up the DVD menu creation by unchecking "Make Motion Menu". In your case, I am amazed that VS is able to make Mpeg2 motion menus from mpeg4 files without going belly up.

My suggestion was to set Project Properties to match the mpeg4 video files while editing and playing back edits from the mpeg4 video clips. Then do SHARE/Create Video File (select DVD Template and setup Mpeg2 Properties, here) to accomplish the transcoding of mpeg4 to mpeg2, while it integrates your edits into a DVD-compliant video file.

Finally, open a new project, SHARE/Create Disk and press "Add Video" to select your video file for burning. Add menus and then burn. Use R/W DVDs to avoid beer coasters.

[pkimelma]

The great advantage of creating a video file prior to burning is that you can inspect the video file if/when things go wrong.

You can speed up the DVD menu creation by unchecking "Make Motion Menu". In your case, I am amazed that VS is able to make Mpeg2 motion menus from mpeg4 files without going belly up.
... Use R/W DVDs to avoid beer coasters.

I was unaware that any such problem would/should exist. I have had no problem with motion menus (other than it taking 30 minutes of time during DVD creation to make them) or DVD creation. I have not had any coasters per se (although on TV the anti-shake filter on one section looked worse than if I had not used it, so I redid the DVD; but, I had reviewed it as a project and it look OK on the smaller preview window; so, I am not sure if I would have caught it if I watched it in QT or MP).

My guess is that the MPEG4 files from XACTI do not strain the decoder of VS as much as some that people are using. I ported the open source MPEG4/divx decoder last year (went with the titling work) and these files were easy to manage. The XACTI encoder does not use long streams of 1/2 or 1/4 pixel shifts, and it uses frame refresh often enough that you can catch up. So, it may be that others have had overly compressed files or ones with heavy use of small regions of 1/4 pixel shifts, which are a pain to handle (a lot of math).

That said, I have created an MPEG2 output file with VS. I did so because I was playing with downloadable files for family. I wanted to use MPEG4, but had not realized the project changes the output based on the 1st dropped input. I will try an MPEG4 output file since I would want that for the compression.