Video jitter on moving to next clip

VideoLab · Post by **VideoLab** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:29 am

Hi,

I am having a serious prob which seem to be a bit strange so I thought I will post it for the experts on the forum to help me out as they have always done earlier.

I am editing our Travel Video and following the recommended procedures as laid down on the forum.

The edited video play absolutely fine when I am playing on the PC DVD player and my home DVD player ( Make : SonY ).

When I take the same DVD to a friends house I observe the following prob:

Every individul clip play fine without any jitters but video jump a bit when moving from one clip to another.

Can someone throw some light as what might be causing the prob.

Many Thanks

---------------------------------------------------------------
Win XP SP 2
Intel P4 Motherboard
Sigma Tel Sound card
40 GB HDD
1 GB RAM

ULEAD VIDEO STUDIO 10

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:42 am

It could be a variety of things. The simplest might be that it is just the behaviour of your friend's player. Some stand-alone players, and especially the more expensive brand-name ones (like your Sony!) just don't like home-made videos. Sometimes this is because of the type (+ or -R) or brand or colour of the dye used on them, or a combination of all of these factors. Burning speed can be another factor: we generally recommend you keep the burning speed low to allow the laser to embed the signal well into the disc. Normally we say not to go above 4x regardless of the rated speed of the disc and your burner.

But another likely suspect in my view could be the way you put your project together. Unless you have done 'split by scene' during capture, then you will have one big file (or bigger sets of files) in your timeline. When you make editing cuts in them, and move the bits around, it may seem that you are actually moving real pieces of video around on the timeline. But you are not. The cuts you make in such conditions are only virtual, with the project file (VSP) merely recording where a cut is supposed to be made in the final rendering. When you insert a transition between two of the 'cut' files, it is in fact not a transition between two separate files, which should make a clean break, but over some other now theoretically invisible piece of your virtual file(s).

If your file is mpeg-2, moreover, it could be that the cut you made was not clean but breaks into a GOP (Group of Pictures) unevenly.

Anyway, the long and the short of it is that IMHO VS does not always handle this situation well. I know it may work for a lot of people either all the time or most of the time, but I have occasionally had trouble with it. It is my invariable practice now to either split by scene during capture if the original video is a DV (it's not possible during capture is you are capturing to mpeg-2). This gives me real (as opposed to virtual) files. Or if I am cutting up any file in the timeline, then I always go to Clip > Save Trimmed Video, which again ensures that I have a completely new file containing my edits. Then I delete the edited bits from my timeline and substitute them with my newly Saved files...

Post by **lancecarr** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:45 am

Edit: Ken's too fast!

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:08 am

Lance -- it would still be interesting to hear your own take on the situation...

Post by **lancecarr** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:01 am

Hi Ken,
On the information provided I was thinking much along the same lines as you on this one.
The replay problem on stand alone players could be caused by the bitrate spiking during the edits because the MPEG2 encoder is interpreting this as high motion if the OP is using a variable bitrate.
Another likely cause would be the fact that the DVD standard for players does not require them to be able to play "burned" DVDs, only commercially "pressed" DVD's so the key points are to not stress out the player with unusually high bitrates and DVDs that are burned at maximun speed. The old burn at 4x rule has always kept me safe regardless of the burn speed promoted by the disc or burner manufacturer.

VideoLab · Post by **VideoLab** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:03 pm

Thanks Ken and Lance for the valued information.

I had followed the Old Burn Rules of burning DVD's at 4x but on checking my Project setting I found that my Video Data rate setting was ( Max 9100 Kbps).

I also found the following information on Steve's Video Product Tutorial where his recommendation of Video data rate is Variable ( Max 2500 Kbps) for Standard Play.

Standard Play (Approx. 120 min per DVD)
MPEG files
24 Bits, 720 x 576, 25 fps
(DVD-PAL), 4:3
Video data rate: Variable (Max. 2500 kbps)
Audio data rate: 256 kbps
AC-3 Audio, 48 KHz, 2/0(L,R)

Could someone kindly educate me on the Variable Bit Rate. I mean what role is it playing while burning the DVD.

Do you'll think that my Video Data Rate setting might be causing the problem. I could try burning the DVD's again with a lower value, if suggested.

Thanks,

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:56 pm

Certainly the bitrate is high, and some players get skittish with very high bitrates. As you note, the normal highest bit-rate for HQ video (one hour on a single sided DVD) is 8000 kbps. But if you are wanting to fit 90 minutes or a little more, then use a bitrate of VBR Max 6000 kbps with Dolby audio. This will still give you an extremely good quality DVD. For two hours, I would use VBR Max 4000 kbps and Dolby, and you will get good quality, though at this level, you will probably be able to tell is is not the best quality.

I am a little surprised that Steve recommends VBR Max 2500 kbps for 2 hours. You would probably be able to fit more than 3 hours on a single layer DVD with that...

cheetah · Post by **cheetah** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 4:54 pm

If I interpret VideoLab correctly I too have had a similar problem. However, my source content is TV shows recorded onto an RW from videotape or with a DVD recorder for editing out the commercials. Often when I make a burn, I will make a second or a third copy for others. To date, all of my copies appear to play fine on my Panasonic recorder (the machine that recorded on the RW for importation) but the other two people who are also using Panasonic recorders for play back have experienced some issues. One said that for some of the discs on some of the episodes that the motion is not so much choppy after going from one clip to another (clips created of course after cutting out the ads) but rather there is a slight lag. It is at these points where I make a chapter stop and he tells me that when he does see the problem that when he goes back to the beginning of the chapter the problem goes away.

The other individual mention seeing some very slight OOS perhaps by a difference of 2 or 3 frames from his estimate. He described it when during a musical performance he could see the drummer's drumstick going in the air after hitting the drum while at the same time hearing the beat of the drum. I played one of the burns I sent where I did some audio editing with Magix Audio Cleaning lab and the disc appeared to play fine with no noticeable issues (including OOS) when I played it on a lower level recorder (Centrios) in addition to my Panasonic. The guy I sent that to never got back to me yet on that particular disc but for the other person who stated he seen a bit of a slag, he said he did not notice it when playing one of the discs on a cheap entry level player only. At one point because I had imported some of the episodes with VS9 before making the switch over to VS10 I had thought this might be due to importing with a different version, but can this really be the issue where VS9 and 10 are supposed to be compatible for such a purpose and also I was told that the problem appeared on discs that were made with episodes imported with VS10 only.

I pretty much only use the importing feature to get my data onto the hard drive so the split by scene option as recommended by Ken is not possible. Therefore I wonder about the other suggestion. Should I go to Clip > Save Trimmed Video before or after I edit out any commercials and/or move segments around. Should I still delete as I go or leve all of the unwanted clips in the project until I am ready to use Clip > Save Trimmed Video? Either way, then do I just save the project as usual after using the Clip > Save Trimmed Video feature?

This brings me to another point and perhaps one that needs another topic.
I have used the recommended procedure as close as I could with VS9. In addition I should ad, with the exception to one burn with edited data that was apparently corrupt (and I could not import it to begin with so I had to real time capture the data which gave a ton of dropped frames but that is another story) I never heard of the problems mentioned above with the VS9 burns.

I suggest that the recommended procedure also mention the proper steps involved when not only real time capturing but for importing also as I would imagine a fair number of people use that feature as well. For instance, I was told that when importing DVDs that I should use Upper Field First. To me, analog would be when you real time capture content off of a VHS tape onto the hard drive but if it is already onto the disc isn't that content now in digital form? I was told that unless you capture real time with a digital camcorder that you should always use Upper Field First which is what I ended up doing for all of my VS9 and now 10 imports. I can imagine that others may have similar confusion with that where it is not addressed and I would have went with Lower Field First if not advised otherwise.

Another thing is the resolution. Apparently the data I import as recorded with my Panasonic is in 704 X 480 (broadcast resolution). I followed the recommended procedure and despite what was imported, I had the settings throughout the DVD making process at 720 X480. That resulted in rendering times for a project/episode of a TV show without the ads (22.5 minutes) to take 40 to 45 minutes to render a Videofile. I did all my burns with VS9 that way but was told later on that this may actually promote a slight loss in quality. Those discs I sent to one of those individuals never had the lag he mentioned with the VS9 burns. With 10, I went against the recommended procedure where I am importing and used the 704 X 480 resolution because that would make more sense would it not? This should be pointed out in the procedure. The rendering times went down to around 4 to 5 minutes for a 22.5 minute episode which makes sense where it does not have to convert every single frame (which was a waste of time anyhow because you can't improve on the quality). I am bringing this up in this topic even though I really doubt that it had anything to do with the issues mentioned but more importantly because I also think it should be mentioned in the recommended procedures.

As a side note to this, I read on more than one occassion where the 8 pixels on either side of the screen which are missing in broadcast resolution contain unimportant information anyhow.

Another change I did not so much make as I did take advantage of was putting more shows onto one disc with the VS10 burns. In order to minimize/prevent any degradation, I always use the max bit rate. While the bit rate when viewing the properties of the Panasonic imports is 9558, I went as high as I could go with both VS 9 & 10 at the max 8264 bit rate. Doing this with VS9 only allowed me to put three episodes (VideoFiles) of the length indicated onto a DVD without having to lower the bit rate. Did the resolution alteration have something to do with this...I doubt it. With VS10 however, it allows me to put 5 Videofile episodes onto a disc which appears to acts like a commercial or hardware encoder. If it lets me put 5 episodes onto a disc without forcing me to lower the bit rate to fit them all on one 4.7GG disc then why not? With VS9 I had to experiment with Fit & Burn with multiple burns on an RW to find the max bit rate possible for projects larger than 70 minutes. I do get a message with VS10 before I am ready to burn saying that this may take some time, but the time it takes for the actual burning to occur (about 75 minutes later) is around the same amount of time when VS9 was getting 3 episodes to burn. The video quality itself appears not to have suffered at all in my opinion when comparing the VS10 5 episode disc burns to the original recordings. This was all of course a pleasant surprise to see. Again, I can't see this difference in going from 3 to 5 episodes causing any of the problems indicated, particularly when I burned a couple of discs where the content was just one program and was equivalent in running time to 3 22.5 minute episodes. On those burns, the problems as mentioned were still noticed by the other two people but once again not by me.

I am in NTSC territory.

I am using a Compaq Presario...

XP Home
Pentium 4 2.66 GHz
1GB RAM
160GB Hard drive
Motherboard manufacturer's name: ASUS PTGD1-LA
Integrated Intel High Definition(TM) audio (Azalia)
Realtek ALC 880 chipset

Also, I went into msconfig and disabled all programs not essential to VS as that computer is completed devoted to video editing and DVD burning with no internet connection.

cheetah · Post by **cheetah** » Sat Sep 16, 2006 5:45 pm

On the topic of the recommended procedure regarding importing once again, I guess you still use Upper Field First even for importing DVD recordings off of a digital cable signal...correct? It would make sense that you would use the same field for all imports regardless but just making sure for when using a digital signal onto a digital medium.

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Video jitter on moving to next clip

Video jitter on moving to next clip

Video jitter on moving to nex clip