Please help - pulsing video after 12m12s!!

Post Reply
cadmus

Please help - pulsing video after 12m12s!!

Post by cadmus »

I really hope someone can shed some light on this one for me. After reading thru this forum I decided to switch from my old method of 2-pass encode VBR to CBR, and am happy with the quality result (looks better than what I was doing). However, I have just noticed that on each video I create, if it goes longer than 12m12s, then it starts to "pulse" for the remainder of the clip, probably about 2 pulses per second.

I am editing MiniDV AVI's, and creating PAL DVD files at CBR-3300 Quality-66, using MPEG Audio @ 128. I've changed the quality settings around a fair bit (trying desperately to have the best possible quality that will still fit on the one DVD). My source files are on C: (13GB free, SATA), as is the project file, but I have rendered both to C: and to a separate drive with no difference.

The DVD I am creating is a kickboxing show, with each fight being it's own clip, hence some clips going longer than 12m12s and others not.

Does this time mean anything to anybody? It's seems a strange time to introduce the issue, regardless of other factors (it happens right at this point on at least 5 of my clips).

Please help - it was due yesterday!!! :? Obviously I can go back to VBR, but I'm not even certain this issue won't raise it's ugly head there now too, as I don't know why it's happening, or if it's anything to do with CBR!!
sjj1805
Posts: 14383
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:20 am
operating_system: Windows XP Pro
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 32 Bit
motherboard: Equium P200-178
processor: Intel Pentium Dual-Core Processor T2080
ram: 2 GB
Video Card: Intel 945 Express
sound_card: Intel GMA 950
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 1160 GB
Location: Birmingham UK

Post by sjj1805 »

First thing I suspect is a fault with either your camcorder or the tapes.
Could you perhaps hook the camcorder up to a TV set and view the footage directly from the camcorder to check.
cadmus

Post by cadmus »

Nope, the source DV avi files don't have the pulse. Only after rendering... :(
Terry Stetler
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:34 pm
Location: Westland, Michigan USA

Post by Terry Stetler »

First of all 3300 kbps at 66% is way too low a quality for action video. If a higher setting won't fit on one DVD then I'd strongly suggest dividing the project into 2 DVD's, giving you room for something more reasonable for action shots; say 6000 kbps at 80% or better.

2 pulses a second indicates that they occur at the GOP boundaries. GOP = Group Of Pictures, the image arrangement used in MPEG files.

GOP's for DVD are "IBP" MEPEG's consisting of 1 real bitmap (an "I" frame something like a JPeg) followed by either 11 (PAL) or 14 (NTSC) calculated "B" or "P" frames.

These synthetic frames are calculated by the motion differences between the previous and next I frames and are arranged something like this (NTSC GOP's shown);

IBBPBBPBBPBBPBB IBBPBBPBBPBBPBB IBBPBBPBBPBBPBB etc. etc.

Remember: the B and P frames are mathematical constructs, they don't really "exist" which is why MPEG files are so much smaller than DV or MJPeg. They are 100% I frames.

Sometimes with action shots there is too much motion between the I frames to precisely calculate the B and P frames, often causing pulsations or other artifacts.

Plan A is what I mentioned before; divide the project and use higher quality settings. If that doesn't do it then go to Plan B.

Plan B is to modify the advanced MPEG settings to something more suitable for action shots. These changes usually fall into two catagories;

1. set the encoder to create more GOP's per second. More GOP's means fewer synthetic frames and more I frames, which are real images.

In NTSC instead of a 15 GOP (one I frame + 14 BP frames) one might choose a 6 GOP (one I frame + 5 BP frames). This would mean instead of 2 GOP's per second there would be 5 GOP's.

2. improve the motion search precision. More precision improves the quality of these calculations at the cost of encoding time. Sometimes this is the sacrifice you make for shooting high motion video.

The specifics for both MSPro and VideoStudio are dettailed in tis tutorial;

http://forum.corel.com/EN/viewtopic.php?t=10880

VideoStudio users: read ALL of it as in the followup posts there is info specific to VideoStudio.

Good luck!!
Last edited by Terry Stetler on Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
Terry Stetler
Gorf
Advisor
Posts: 428
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 2:46 pm
Location: Blackburn, UK

Post by Gorf »

Terry Stetler wrote:...Sometimes with action shots there is too much motion between the I frames to precisely calculate the B and P frames, often causing pulsations or other artifacts. The solultion is to modify the advanced MPEG settings to something more suitable for action shots....
I'be had the pulsing occur with CBR footage based on stills that have just had the pan and zoom filter applied, so I don't think that it's to do with the action. This can easily be tested by the OP: Encode a five-minute section starting at 10:00 using the same CBR MPEG parameters. If you get no pulsing - it's not the action. If you get pulsing that starts at 2:12, there's something specific about your footage that the encoder doesn't like.

I agree with Terry though - the pulsing is something to do with GoPs.
cadmus

Post by cadmus »

Excellent, thanks for that guys. Especially Terry, nice work on the tutorial!!

I haven't tried just rendering out the section after the 12minute mark, so I'll give that a go and see, but I'm skeptical it will have the problem as it seems to me to only happen once the entire project hits the 12m12s mark.

I don't think it's the action either, as it only seems to start around about the 5th round or so, so there's been a fair bit of action before that!

I won't know until I get home and am able to try, but I'm looking forward to trying the changes outlined in the tutorial. Excellent work.

Only problem is I've had this issue I think because I'm having to drastically reduce the file size to fit nearly 3 hours on a single layer DVD. Increasing I-frames will kind of blow that out of the water!! :(
Devil
Posts: 3032
Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:06 am
Location: Cyprus

Post by Devil »

How about taking the plunge towards DL DVDs?
[b][i][color=red]Devil[/color][/i][/b]

[size=84]P4 Core 2 Duo 2.6 GHz/Elite NVidia NF650iSLIT-A/2 Gb dual channel FSB 1333 MHz/Gainward NVidia 7300/2 x 80 Gb, 1 x 300 Gb, 1 x 200 Gb/DVCAM DRV-1000P drive/ Pan NV-DX1&-DX100/MSP8/WS2/PI11/C3D etc.[/size]
sjj1805
Posts: 14383
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:20 am
operating_system: Windows XP Pro
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 32 Bit
motherboard: Equium P200-178
processor: Intel Pentium Dual-Core Processor T2080
ram: 2 GB
Video Card: Intel 945 Express
sound_card: Intel GMA 950
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 1160 GB
Location: Birmingham UK

Post by sjj1805 »

cadmus wrote:.............Only problem is I've had this issue I think because I'm having to drastically reduce the file size to fit nearly 3 hours on a single layer DVD. Increasing I-frames will kind of blow that out of the water!! :(
Blank DVD R's are so cheap now why not spread it over more than one disc.
With increasing TV screen sizes this is going to get more important. What may be a reasonably good picture on a portable TV will look horid on one of these giant 45" screen monsters.
cadmus

Post by cadmus »

I've done a test render of one of the files of the portion that was previously 'pulsing', and as I suspected, no pulse. It only happens if the entire project is rendered. Perhaps it's something to do with memory etc. as the render is running for probably about 40 minutes before it gets to the point where it pulses??? Still no idea though (I've got 1gb RAM, and a minimum of 13GB free on the disks I'm rendering/tempdir).

Believe me, I've explored the options of DL and spreading across 2 discs, the only problem being it really isn't my call. As I'm doing it for the promoter of the show, and he then sells them on, he has the doubled cost of getting them burnt, printed etc.

I talked to him about it this arvo though, and he seems pretty open to spreading across 2 discs, so that's the way I'm going to go (DL has too many compatibility issues with punters' DVD players, plus he has to get a minimum of 1000 burnt at a time - he wouldn't go for that!!). I've just done a render of one large fight at a new, high-quality setting, and it's slightly less than double, so I'm good to go.

Still doesn't answer the problem though... :(
GeorgeW
Posts: 2595
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:25 am

Post by GeorgeW »

Out of curiosity, how long is the entire video (exactly 3 hours, more or less)? And have you tried just moving the quality slider from 66 all the way up to 90-100 (which won't increase your resulting size)?

Also, what sort of editing are you doing on the timeline? Straight cuts, inserting stills and/or text, overlays, transitions, etc...

And what resolution, and field order are you using for your final mpeg render?

btw, do you render out your timeline to dv .avi, then render the resulting dv .avi to mpeg? Or do you just render your timeline out to mpeg?

What DVD Authoring do you use, and does it use them "asis", or does it want to render your mpegs?

Regards,
George
sjj1805
Posts: 14383
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:20 am
operating_system: Windows XP Pro
System_Drive: C
32bit or 64bit: 32 Bit
motherboard: Equium P200-178
processor: Intel Pentium Dual-Core Processor T2080
ram: 2 GB
Video Card: Intel 945 Express
sound_card: Intel GMA 950
Hard_Drive_Capacity: 1160 GB
Location: Birmingham UK

Post by sjj1805 »

cadmus wrote:I've done a test render of one of the files of the portion that was previously 'pulsing', and as I suspected, no pulse. It only happens if the entire project is rendered. Perhaps it's something to do with memory etc. as the render is running for probably about 40 minutes before it gets to the point where it pulses??? Still no idea though (I've got 1gb RAM, and a minimum of 13GB free on the disks I'm rendering/tempdir). .............. :(
Try Creating a Video Editing profile Even if it doesnt solve this problem it will be worth having one anyway.
Post Reply