If so, what software or hardare will be required to save DV tape data in DV format. As far as I know, the speed rate of Mpeng 2 is only 9 mbs top while DV tape speed rate is around 20 mbs.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Liu
Please help re. DV format
-
Liu
Please help re. DV format
One magazine articles states that dv tape can be "authored" or "burn" in "DV" format instead of the compressed Mpeng 2. Is there a "DV format?
If so, what software or hardare will be required to save DV tape data in DV format. As far as I know, the speed rate of Mpeng 2 is only 9 mbs top while DV tape speed rate is around 20 mbs.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Liu
If so, what software or hardare will be required to save DV tape data in DV format. As far as I know, the speed rate of Mpeng 2 is only 9 mbs top while DV tape speed rate is around 20 mbs.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Liu
-
Liu
P.S. I mean dv format
To anyone who can help me:
By DV format, mentioned in my question, I was not referring to the
[b]Digital device format (DV-AVI)[/b]. DV-AVI has a much slower MbS and is the finished product to be exported back to the tape.
Help, please. Not being able to save all the data, like the still camera's "Raw" format could, I have been forced to save all my original tapes.
Much obliged.
By DV format, mentioned in my question, I was not referring to the
[b]Digital device format (DV-AVI)[/b]. DV-AVI has a much slower MbS and is the finished product to be exported back to the tape.
Help, please. Not being able to save all the data, like the still camera's "Raw" format could, I have been forced to save all my original tapes.
Much obliged.
-
maddrummer3301
- Posts: 2507
- Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 10:24 pm
- Location: US
If everything is working correctly, the video data on the tape should exactly match the DV-AVI file on the hard drive. And, you should be able to save it back to tape without any loss. AVI is a "container" format, and it can hold almost any type of video data/compression. When you save it back to tape, the "AVI" wrapper isn't saved to tape... just the DV part... like the original.
Unlike MPEG, the DV bitrate is fixed (around 25mbps + audio & "overhead").
Of course, if you capture to MPEG-2, and then save back to tape, you will get some quality loss. The bitrate will be the same as the original, but the data that was thrown-away during the MPEG compression is gone forever.
Unlike MPEG, the DV bitrate is fixed (around 25mbps + audio & "overhead").
Of course, if you capture to MPEG-2, and then save back to tape, you will get some quality loss. The bitrate will be the same as the original, but the data that was thrown-away during the MPEG compression is gone forever.
[size=92][i]Head over heels,
No time to think.
It's like the whole world's
Out of... sync.[/i]
- Head Over Heels, The Go-Gos.[/size]
No time to think.
It's like the whole world's
Out of... sync.[/i]
- Head Over Heels, The Go-Gos.[/size]
-
Liu
Thanks to both
Dear Maddrummer and DVDDoug:
Thank you both very much for your kind replies. They answered my question completedly.
The article I mentioned entitled "Ulead DVD Movie Factory 5..." in the August 2006 issue of CAMCORDER AND COMPUTERVIDEO. It stated on p. 50 that: "[Using Ulead DVD Moviefactory 5] You can author to to HD DVD, and record Blue-ray direct-to-direct, in MPEG-2...or DV formats."
After reading your replies, I assume the "DV format" in hard drive or in DVD is the same as "the AVI" format. If my understanding is incorrect, please advise me. But if it is correct, then why all DVD recorder with Hard Drive can only record in MPeg-2 format. Is it because AVI would take up too much storage [HARD Drive] space? If this is the reason, wouldn't the loss of data due to Mpeg-2 compression "cost" more?
In the meantime, if I want to save all my data and preserve perfect DV quality, will authoring everything in "Avi format" be the only answer?
Thank you very much, from
Leo,
Thank you both very much for your kind replies. They answered my question completedly.
The article I mentioned entitled "Ulead DVD Movie Factory 5..." in the August 2006 issue of CAMCORDER AND COMPUTERVIDEO. It stated on p. 50 that: "[Using Ulead DVD Moviefactory 5] You can author to to HD DVD, and record Blue-ray direct-to-direct, in MPEG-2...or DV formats."
After reading your replies, I assume the "DV format" in hard drive or in DVD is the same as "the AVI" format. If my understanding is incorrect, please advise me. But if it is correct, then why all DVD recorder with Hard Drive can only record in MPeg-2 format. Is it because AVI would take up too much storage [HARD Drive] space? If this is the reason, wouldn't the loss of data due to Mpeg-2 compression "cost" more?
In the meantime, if I want to save all my data and preserve perfect DV quality, will authoring everything in "Avi format" be the only answer?
Thank you very much, from
Leo,
-
heinz-oz
Leo, I still have problems understanding correctly what you are after, sorry.
At present I believe you would like to preserve all your MiniDV tapes on some form of optical disk rather than tape, is that correct?
Ordinary DVD will hold too little data in DV-AVI. DV-AVI comes in at 13GB / hour, requiring the tape content (1 hour) to be split into 3 segments for storage on 3 x DVD disks (pure data storage, no authoring).
To "author to disk" as a DVD, only mpeg2 will work, with the known issues for later editing. Blueray or HD disks have a larger storage area but to what extend these disks will be suitable for data only, I don't know.
At present I believe you would like to preserve all your MiniDV tapes on some form of optical disk rather than tape, is that correct?
Ordinary DVD will hold too little data in DV-AVI. DV-AVI comes in at 13GB / hour, requiring the tape content (1 hour) to be split into 3 segments for storage on 3 x DVD disks (pure data storage, no authoring).
To "author to disk" as a DVD, only mpeg2 will work, with the known issues for later editing. Blueray or HD disks have a larger storage area but to what extend these disks will be suitable for data only, I don't know.
-
Liu
yes that was my problem
Dear heinz-oz
So nice of you to help me.
Yes, what I wish to do is, exactly as you stated, "to preserve all your MiniDV tapes on some form of optical disk rather than tape". And that is absolutely correct.
My question is still, as you also stated, could I have my MiniDV data [video] preserved or burn [or authored] on DVD in DV-AVI format?
Your kind answer said "no authoring" although "pure data storage" is ok.
Then, can the DV-AVI in 3XDVD disks in pure data storage be played? I find myself naive and ignorant on this point. What is the difference between "pure data storage" and "authoring". This is the first time I learned that there is a difference between them. I thought "authoring" is "burning". To store anything in pure data form in a DVD woud require "burning", and thus "authoring".
Forgive me for my ignorance. I have spent a great deal of time studying these subjects and until now, I thought I was more than an amateur.
Your enlightenment will be greatly appreciated. Gorgive me for my typing mistakes. Thanks
from
Leo in Canada
So nice of you to help me.
Yes, what I wish to do is, exactly as you stated, "to preserve all your MiniDV tapes on some form of optical disk rather than tape". And that is absolutely correct.
My question is still, as you also stated, could I have my MiniDV data [video] preserved or burn [or authored] on DVD in DV-AVI format?
Your kind answer said "no authoring" although "pure data storage" is ok.
Then, can the DV-AVI in 3XDVD disks in pure data storage be played? I find myself naive and ignorant on this point. What is the difference between "pure data storage" and "authoring". This is the first time I learned that there is a difference between them. I thought "authoring" is "burning". To store anything in pure data form in a DVD woud require "burning", and thus "authoring".
Forgive me for my ignorance. I have spent a great deal of time studying these subjects and until now, I thought I was more than an amateur.
Your enlightenment will be greatly appreciated. Gorgive me for my typing mistakes. Thanks
from
Leo in Canada
-
heinz-oz
Hi Leo,
don't despair, it's a common occurrence these days. People often refer to AVI and expect everyone to know exactly what they are talking about. It's the same as if I would ask you: can I extinguish a fire with that bucket? As long as there is water in it, maybe. If it contains petrol, surely not
By the same token, people refer to the process of getting DV-AVI into the PC as capturing when, in fact, it has nothing to do with any capture. You wouldn't capture a news paper, would you? No, you read it.
Now back to your questions. BTW, there aren't any stupid questions
Stupid answers, yes.
Difference between burning and authoring:
The process of storing data, any data in any format, to a non volatile memory storage media is called burning. I'm an engineer. We used to and still do "burn" machine data to EPROM's used in PLC controllers.
Authoring entails a lot more processes than just storing data. When you get your DVD compliant mpeg2 file from your editing program, you can burn that to a DVD blank and it will play on your computer but not on a stand alone DVD player. In order for the DVD player to understand what to do with the data (mpeg2) you need to "author the data to DVD format. That entails the conversion of the mpeg2 file into VOB files and the generation of IFO and BUP files to inform the DVD player of what is to be done with this disk.
When you “capture” your MiniDV tape content to your PC, all that’s happening is that the data, as is, is transferred to your HDD in a slightly compressed (virtually lossless) format known as DV wrapped in an AVI container. The transfer is one to one, no conversion etc. The file or files have the file extension .avi.
Being pure data, if the avi file is not bigger than 4.36 GB, will fit on a standard DVD blank. Since there is no further compression, there is no quality loss. Because your DV tape holds around one hour of video, if you capture that as one file, the file is going to be around 13 GB in size. Too big for a DVD disk.
In the capture module, you can instruct Ulead VS or MSP (not sure about DVD MF, never used it to capture) to split the ‘capture file’ at certain intervals. If you set that to around 4.36 GB, your captured one hour tape is going to be split into 3 segments. Each of these segments will fit on a SL DVD blank. These will not play on a DVD player mind you, but could be played on a PC in WinMediaPlayer. The purpose of this is to store the original footage on an optical medium, rather than tape.
If you are still not clear, never fear, just ask.
don't despair, it's a common occurrence these days. People often refer to AVI and expect everyone to know exactly what they are talking about. It's the same as if I would ask you: can I extinguish a fire with that bucket? As long as there is water in it, maybe. If it contains petrol, surely not
By the same token, people refer to the process of getting DV-AVI into the PC as capturing when, in fact, it has nothing to do with any capture. You wouldn't capture a news paper, would you? No, you read it.
Now back to your questions. BTW, there aren't any stupid questions
Stupid answers, yes.Difference between burning and authoring:
The process of storing data, any data in any format, to a non volatile memory storage media is called burning. I'm an engineer. We used to and still do "burn" machine data to EPROM's used in PLC controllers.
Authoring entails a lot more processes than just storing data. When you get your DVD compliant mpeg2 file from your editing program, you can burn that to a DVD blank and it will play on your computer but not on a stand alone DVD player. In order for the DVD player to understand what to do with the data (mpeg2) you need to "author the data to DVD format. That entails the conversion of the mpeg2 file into VOB files and the generation of IFO and BUP files to inform the DVD player of what is to be done with this disk.
When you “capture” your MiniDV tape content to your PC, all that’s happening is that the data, as is, is transferred to your HDD in a slightly compressed (virtually lossless) format known as DV wrapped in an AVI container. The transfer is one to one, no conversion etc. The file or files have the file extension .avi.
Being pure data, if the avi file is not bigger than 4.36 GB, will fit on a standard DVD blank. Since there is no further compression, there is no quality loss. Because your DV tape holds around one hour of video, if you capture that as one file, the file is going to be around 13 GB in size. Too big for a DVD disk.
In the capture module, you can instruct Ulead VS or MSP (not sure about DVD MF, never used it to capture) to split the ‘capture file’ at certain intervals. If you set that to around 4.36 GB, your captured one hour tape is going to be split into 3 segments. Each of these segments will fit on a SL DVD blank. These will not play on a DVD player mind you, but could be played on a PC in WinMediaPlayer. The purpose of this is to store the original footage on an optical medium, rather than tape.
If you are still not clear, never fear, just ask.
-
Liu
So much to learn
Dear heinz-oz:
Your kind answer has taught me more than what I have learned from not only the four video or computerVideo related magazines as well as numerous books I have studied over the past ten years, honestly.
Yes, you answers all my questions and puzzles. Yet I need to study them and digest your instructions carefully, albeit slowly. For example, this is the for time I learned that a DVD may play in PC but not in a stand alone DVD player. Previously, I only know that only DVD-Ram cannot be played with most stand-alone DVD players.
I also never knew that AVI format cannot be played whatsoever [am i right?]. And capturing and burning into DVD are different [am I right?] etc.
I am sure I will bug you again for advice as I begin to digest the information you kindly shared with me. I am indeed very grateful.
Best wishes,
Leo
Your kind answer has taught me more than what I have learned from not only the four video or computerVideo related magazines as well as numerous books I have studied over the past ten years, honestly.
Yes, you answers all my questions and puzzles. Yet I need to study them and digest your instructions carefully, albeit slowly. For example, this is the for time I learned that a DVD may play in PC but not in a stand alone DVD player. Previously, I only know that only DVD-Ram cannot be played with most stand-alone DVD players.
I also never knew that AVI format cannot be played whatsoever [am i right?]. And capturing and burning into DVD are different [am I right?] etc.
I am sure I will bug you again for advice as I begin to digest the information you kindly shared with me. I am indeed very grateful.
Best wishes,
Leo
-
heinz-oz
There are a number of diferent data formats that can be "wrapped" in an AVI wrapper. DV-AVI (the data you get from aMiniDV camcorder) DivX, Xvid, mpeg4 are some of the very highly compressed video formats commonly wrapped in an AVI container.
All formats of AVI can be played on a PC if you have the right decoder installed.
Some of the latest DVD players, so I have heard, can play mpeg4, DivX and maybe Xvid files but these are not yet common. These highly compressed video formats are usually used with downloadable movies and web streaming.
Ordinary DVD players can only play video that has been authored to compliant standards which are based on mpeg2 compression.
All formats of AVI can be played on a PC if you have the right decoder installed.
Some of the latest DVD players, so I have heard, can play mpeg4, DivX and maybe Xvid files but these are not yet common. These highly compressed video formats are usually used with downloadable movies and web streaming.
Ordinary DVD players can only play video that has been authored to compliant standards which are based on mpeg2 compression.
Hi Liu,
to "backup" your miniDV tapes I suggest to first capture them as native DV AVIs to disk (lossless, no conversion), preferably on an external USB2 disk that is normally not powered on. This way the data is not destroyed if the pc has a crisis (virus, etc.).
Then record them to another tape.
This way you have a backup, even if one of the items (cassette, disk) is damaged or dies. The price for 250GB disks is low because the larger ones are "in" now. I just grabbed an additional 250GB Samsung disk for a USB2 enclosure for 63€.
BTW if you have 2 camcorders, you could copy directly to another tape if one of them allows DV input on its firewire port. I'm only mentioning this because some cheaper models come without DV input and can only record from the lens but not from a firewire signal.
Important to know...
Depending on the software and the settings used, recording the captured DV AVIs to a new tape via firewire may create new timecode and destroy the original date and time of the scenes.
With the software I use, I have to *disable* realtime playback (even if nothing was edited!). This keeps the original timecode of all scenes intact.
to "backup" your miniDV tapes I suggest to first capture them as native DV AVIs to disk (lossless, no conversion), preferably on an external USB2 disk that is normally not powered on. This way the data is not destroyed if the pc has a crisis (virus, etc.).
Then record them to another tape.
This way you have a backup, even if one of the items (cassette, disk) is damaged or dies. The price for 250GB disks is low because the larger ones are "in" now. I just grabbed an additional 250GB Samsung disk for a USB2 enclosure for 63€.
BTW if you have 2 camcorders, you could copy directly to another tape if one of them allows DV input on its firewire port. I'm only mentioning this because some cheaper models come without DV input and can only record from the lens but not from a firewire signal.
Important to know...
Depending on the software and the settings used, recording the captured DV AVIs to a new tape via firewire may create new timecode and destroy the original date and time of the scenes.
With the software I use, I have to *disable* realtime playback (even if nothing was edited!). This keeps the original timecode of all scenes intact.
Henry
-
Liu
Thanks to heinz-oz and Henry
Dear heinz-oz and Henry:
Thanks for the kind instructions from the two of you.
But my goal is to save my about hundred video tapes in DVDs in order to save space. If I have them backuped into other tapes, I need twice the space to store both the original and the backups. I need to have all my data, without compression [Mpeng 4 is compressed and contiains low resolutions, so I understand].
In order not to burden you two teachers too much, alloe me to ask you two "two" questions first. I will save other questions for now.
First, if I capture all my tape data, via firewire, in AVI format, on two DVDs, would I be able to save all the original data and quality? And can I play the DVD tapes in simple AVI format?
Second, if I used stand-alone DVD recorder [without using computer] to have my mini-DV taped videos "authored" onto its DVDs, what format would a standard DVD recorder normally use? Would it be "AVI" or would it be "MPENG-2"? If it is AVI format, I might as well use a stand-alone DVD recorder. By the way, I checked and checked, but could not find even find out if standard DVD recorders [stand-alone] use the same formats,what formats, etc.
Help, please. Thank you in advance.
From
Liu
Thanks for the kind instructions from the two of you.
But my goal is to save my about hundred video tapes in DVDs in order to save space. If I have them backuped into other tapes, I need twice the space to store both the original and the backups. I need to have all my data, without compression [Mpeng 4 is compressed and contiains low resolutions, so I understand].
In order not to burden you two teachers too much, alloe me to ask you two "two" questions first. I will save other questions for now.
First, if I capture all my tape data, via firewire, in AVI format, on two DVDs, would I be able to save all the original data and quality? And can I play the DVD tapes in simple AVI format?
Second, if I used stand-alone DVD recorder [without using computer] to have my mini-DV taped videos "authored" onto its DVDs, what format would a standard DVD recorder normally use? Would it be "AVI" or would it be "MPENG-2"? If it is AVI format, I might as well use a stand-alone DVD recorder. By the way, I checked and checked, but could not find even find out if standard DVD recorders [stand-alone] use the same formats,what formats, etc.
Help, please. Thank you in advance.
From
Liu
-
heinz-oz
Leo, you are still mixing things up 
If you have 100 tapes of 1 hour each, we are talking 13,000 GB in DV-AVI. A DVD disk can hold 4.36 GB. Do your sums. You are going to need a serious number of DVD disks and about a week or so solid backing up.
The problem is this, if you want to retain the original quality for editing later, any mpeg compression is going to cause you grief. If you only want to retain the quality and don't intend to edit later, mpeg4, Xvid or DivX are going to give you good quality video for viewing at minimum storage space requirements. I haven't used these compressions and am not sure about the file size for a 1 hour video. However, they do compress a lot tighter than mpeg2.
A DVD recorder is using a different file format again but that is based on the mpeg2 compression, AFAIK. At the default bitrate, I think it's about 8,000 kbps, you will get about one hour on a DVD. Some have LongPlay as well which will reduce the quality somewhat. Check with a supplier of these devices about the number of hours you can store on one disk. Disks recorded in a recorder are only playing in that recorder or a PC. I don't know if you can get DVD players that can play these formats.
Just search this forum about problems with mpeg editing and you will start to apreciate the hassles you will get.
I don't really know how to further help you. You will need serious amounts of disk space either way if you want to retain the quality of DV-AVI for later editing. You will also need lots and lots of time to capture all these tapes and compress them for archiving if you decide against preserving the editability of DV-AVI and go for some form of compression to save on storage space.
Unfortunately, as it is so often, you can't have your cake and eat it.
If you have 100 tapes of 1 hour each, we are talking 13,000 GB in DV-AVI. A DVD disk can hold 4.36 GB. Do your sums. You are going to need a serious number of DVD disks and about a week or so solid backing up. The problem is this, if you want to retain the original quality for editing later, any mpeg compression is going to cause you grief. If you only want to retain the quality and don't intend to edit later, mpeg4, Xvid or DivX are going to give you good quality video for viewing at minimum storage space requirements. I haven't used these compressions and am not sure about the file size for a 1 hour video. However, they do compress a lot tighter than mpeg2.
A DVD recorder is using a different file format again but that is based on the mpeg2 compression, AFAIK. At the default bitrate, I think it's about 8,000 kbps, you will get about one hour on a DVD. Some have LongPlay as well which will reduce the quality somewhat. Check with a supplier of these devices about the number of hours you can store on one disk. Disks recorded in a recorder are only playing in that recorder or a PC. I don't know if you can get DVD players that can play these formats.
Just search this forum about problems with mpeg editing and you will start to apreciate the hassles you will get.
I don't really know how to further help you. You will need serious amounts of disk space either way if you want to retain the quality of DV-AVI for later editing. You will also need lots and lots of time to capture all these tapes and compress them for archiving if you decide against preserving the editability of DV-AVI and go for some form of compression to save on storage space.
Unfortunately, as it is so often, you can't have your cake and eat it.