Unable to use Red in Titles - sometimes!!

cadmus · Post by **cadmus** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:25 am

Hi guys. This is an annoying, yet not huge problem I seem to have fairly regularly (MSP8).

I'm editing a series of kickboxing fights, and in my titles at the end display the result, including the corner the winner was in, either red or blue. I've been changing the fill colour (color) of the text to either Red or Blue depending on the corner.

In the Insert Title Clip box, Blue (RGB 0,0,255) is available in the initial blocks of colour (when you click on the 'Solid' block, the colours that appear under the Ulead and Windows text options in the popup), and in the Ulead & Windows Color Pickers, and works fine. However - and NOT every time, but a lot - Red (RGB 255,0,0) is NOT in the initial blocks, and if I choose it from the Ulead or Windows pickers, it comes up with the message "Color has been changed by a filter RGB(255,0,0) => RGB(132,0,0)".

Has anyone seen this before? As I tend to work on one project (per fight), and save to different project names for each fight, I simply modify the existing titles etc. each time, and once this happens I then can't get it to work without reloading one that stayed true red previously - before it decided to play up.

There are no video filters specifically on the title, although I do have a Global filter on the project (Highlight). This might explain it, except for the facts that it doesn't change the Blue, and I have other fights/projects saved where the Red stays true and the Global filter is also present.

Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but this has me stumped. In case it helps, I'm editing PAL DV/AVI footage, 4:3. Thanks for any help guys. I'm actually downloading the highly-recommended MSP8 book now, so perhaps the answer is in there (probably should have waited!!!)

Devil · Post by **Devil** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 8:31 am

As I understand it, PAL will not accept true red (it oversaturates). Try 235.0.0, with the Pref/Edit PAL filter unchecked. This is because the signal is encoded to YUV, where each of these uses different fractions of the RGB. If you wish, I can give you the maths equations, but this won't make any difference to the fact that colour signals are limited and you don't have the full gamut of RGB available.

I admit, I have no explanation why it defaults to 132.0.0 with the filter checked. It seems bizarre.

cadmus · Post by **cadmus** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:09 am

Thanks for the help Devil. I don't think it's a PAL issue though, as I have some titles - virtually identical - where the Red stays as it should be (and most importantly - looks RED!!) in other projects, but it won't work in others. All projects have identical settings...

I was at least hoping for a "yeah, I get that too..." from someone so I wouldn't feel like a freak!!

heinz-oz · Post by **heinz-oz** » Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:46 pm

cadmus wrote:...

I was at least hoping for a "yeah, I get that too..." from someone so I wouldn't feel like a freak!!

And that would help you?

Easy to please, Yeah, I get that too if I use colors tha do not comply with PAL standard

True black is another

cadmus · Post by **cadmus** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:31 am

OK, so it wouldn't help me at all, just looking for some love, hence the "at least" and the obviously failed attempt at introducing some levity to proceedings...

And I really don't think it's anything to do with true red not being compliant with PAL standards (although that might explain some elements of it), as I have some that titles that ARE true red, and they work fine. If I try to change the colour of text that is currently red in one that is already working, though, it won't stay red, but if I leave it then it works and looks fine.

NickJushchyshyn · Post by **NickJushchyshyn** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:23 pm

The fact is that PAL and NTSC broadcast standards (and most TVs) cannot support "pure" digital color ... (255, 0, 0 ) red in particular is particularly messy on TVs. It's one of the difficulties with DV->DVD and/or broadcast, because DV actually DOES support these colors.

There's a checkbox setting in MSP's Preferences or Project Settings (sorry guys ... it's been a while) that allows you to have "illegal" colors automatically filtered for you. If you uncheck this, you should be able to have "pure" red in your titles, but they will end up looking pretty bad if played on a TV.

I do quite a bit of video work for of kickboxing and mixed martial arts events and generally stick to bright-red-ish maroon colors and deep navey blues to ensure the final product looks good on everyone's TVs.

Hope this helps.
Have fun.

Greg · Post by **Greg** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:56 am

NickJushchyshyn wrote:(sorry guys ... it's been a while)

Nick,
You're right , it has been a while, welcome back!

Regards,
Greg

cadmus · Post by **cadmus** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 9:58 am

Thanks Nick - I found it: In Preferences, there's an "Apply Color Filter" checkbox, with NTSC and PAL options. I have this checked, and it makes sense that it modifies the color red as a result. Now the strange ones are the ones that DON'T get changed!! But that's answered my question, thanks heaps.

I've always found red to be a real problem on TV's too, but all of the DVD's I've made for these shows have used the true Red, and I think because of the limited amount of colour (just the words 'Red Corner' in reasonably-sized font) it has always appeared pretty much perfect, and I've tested them on about 8 different TV's. So I'm happy to keep using it, but I understand the issue with red.

Interesting that you raise MMA events - these events are always a mix of boxing, kickboxing/thai and MMA, which is great. As a former MMA fighter, I have a bit of bias towards the MMA bouts - especially from a filming and editing standpoint - however I have found that they are usually not as great on the slo-mo's. How do you find editing up fight shows? I'm always torn between loving it, and stressed out due to how long it takes and how tedious parts can be at the same time!

Which country are you from? How's the MMA scene there??

Gorf · Post by **Gorf** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:30 pm

cadmus wrote:Thanks Nick - I found it: In Preferences, there's an "Apply Color Filter" checkbox, with NTSC and PAL options. I have this checked, and it makes sense that it modifies the color red as a result....

What doesn't make sense (to me, at least) is how it changes the colour. From memory (which is shaky at the best of times) the NTSC gamut clips both ends of the spectrum, so 0 maps up to 16 and 255 maps down to 235. PAL (IIRC) isn't so bad - it's only the bright end that maps down. However, I can't see why pure red 255, 0, 0 maps to 132, 0, 0 - surely it should map to 235, 0, 0?

Terry Stetler · Post by **Terry Stetler** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:36 pm

FWIW I edit without the NTSC/PAL filter then let the MPEG encoder do the adjustments. Seems to work the best in every editor I've used.