smart-renderer produces shortdistortions with titles

bsuratt · Post by **bsuratt** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:12 pm

Sektionschef,

I have run into the same problem with VS11+ as well as Magix 12Pro. I tried Womble MVW and it worked perfectly even using M2t files. So this is a problem that can be solved. MVW will let you view only I frames during edit which will allow easier cut locations. I do believe that the problem lies with the I frame location in relation to the cut and transistion.

Sektionschef · Post by **Sektionschef** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 2:41 pm

bsuratt wrote:Sektionschef,
I do believe that the problem lies with the I frame location in relation to the cut and transistion.

Yes, if you go through my previous posts of this thread then you can read that I found a workaround by moving the cut positions to the next I-frame location. Unfortunately this is very much manual work and therefore unacceptable for a user.
And yes, Womble has no problems here. Unfortunately Womble has very few functions/features in comparisson to VS11 or Magix that's why I don't use it.
I could think that the problem is in the Mainconcept mpeg2 encoder because both VS11 and Magix have integrated it and both programs have problems with smartrendering.
Regards
Sektionschef

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:23 pm

I agree this is a major bug.

I suppose nobody noticed it because most of us who understand how smart render works have been typically working with DV .avi files, which are not affected by this bug.

We haven't typically been working with standard or high definition long GOP MPEG-2 files.

And even those of us who have -- on occasion -- experimented with editing MPEG-2 streams haven't paid close enough attention to the result to notice the ever-so-slight glitches that do appear following titles, transitions, etc.

But now that I know about them, I would agree that this is a major bug and it puts in jeopardy the ability to edit HDV and AVCHD.

And it is very, very disappointing.

I have long been excited about the idea of editing MPEG files with smart render capability because of the advantage of less consumption of hard disk space and because of the speed.

Now, this bug makes me wonder if it is even possible to do flawless long GOP MPEG editing without transcoding to intermediate codecs.

I would very much like to find out if any Apple Final Cut Pro users experience this problem.

If so, then it's back to intermediate codecs for me.

And I'll have to "eat crow" for all of my past writings on this topic where I praised Corel (formerly Ulead) for this smart mpeg rendering technology.

I agree.

Now that I can see these glitches, there is no way I can recommend this for professional editing and there is no way I can recommend this for even novice home video editing.

This is really, really surprising and it points to the need for more quality control within the Corel (formerly Ulead) organization.

Yes, transcoding always results in some quality loss, Sektionschef, but one can reduce the quality loss by a significant amount by working with very high bit rates.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Sektionschef wrote: Doesn't reencoding to I-frame-only mpeg2 already results in quality loss??? If so then you should get the same result if you just disable smartrendering instead of rendering 2 twice.
A "true" workaround to avoid the distortions but keep best quality is describled in the history of this thread.
By moving the cut borders to an I-frame location let the distortions disappear. Unfortunately this results in a lot of manual work...
I am still surprised how few people have run into this problem so far(or at least have reported it). In my opinion this is a very serious bug that makes editing of mpeg2 files useless!
Regards
Sektionschef

Sektionschef · Post by **Sektionschef** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:00 pm

Thanks, Jerry!!!

Now, WHO has good contacts to Ulead's R&D department to report this bug and explain how important it is for us?????????
Is there anyone of the moderators that can do this for us???
On the other hand I doubt that Ulead can do something here, I think that they can only wait what Mainconcept will deliver them.
Regards
Sektionschef

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:05 pm

Yes, this is probably -- ultimately -- a MainConcept goof.

But the person at Ulead who approved the smart MPEG rendering feature clearly did not do sufficient testing as this is really, really disappointing.

It basically lowers the Corel products to the level of software we thought was inferior.

It seems to erase the major competitive advantage we thought the Corel video editing products had in connection with MPEG editing.

Wow, I'm really depressed about this.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Post by **Ken Berry** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:22 pm

I am only entering here to pose one technical question. Are you both sure that the codec being used is still a MainConcept one in VS11? I know it was in previous versions. However, Corel/Ulead have for some silly reason substituted an InterVideo capture module for all the various codecs used in previous versions. And I thus wonder whether they might have done something similar for the output encoding as well...

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:48 pm

I didn't realize they had done that, Ken.

How can you tell the difference with the capture module?

But -- as you may know -- my main reason for sticking with Corel (formerly Ulead) was the promise of smart MPEG rendering for use in conjunction with both standard and high definition camcorders that record to MPEG.

I still use my DV camcorders, but I've recently purchased an AVCHD camcorder and I was contemplating the prospect of using the smart MPEG rendering features a lot.

Now, my future plans are dashed.

I wonder how many HDV camcorder users have noticed these problems?

I'll admit the glitches aren't easy to see at first, but after one sees them and recognizes them, it's difficult to accept them.

I'm just astonished that this got past the beta testing.

I also have the Pinnacle Studio Ultimate 11 software, but it seems to re-encode every MPEG frame (unless I'm doing something incorrectly).

The Vegas Movie Studio software transcodes to intermediates.

This issue suggests the low-end software market -- on Windows -- still has some major problems with long GOP editing to overcome.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:33 am

Not sure if your query regarding the capture module was rhetorical or not. Previously, as you know, when you clicked on Change Capture Plug-in, you got a drop down list which included the Direct Show DV capture plug-in, the MPEG one, the Micro plug-in in earlier versions still, and others. Now, when you click on it, you get a variant of Henry Fords reply about the colours available for his Model T Ford: "You can have any colour your like, as long as it's black!" With VS11, you can have any capture plug-in your like, as long as it's "IVI capture component". Nothing else shows.

Regarding Beta testing, things changed there too with VS11. As you are undoubtedly aware, previous versions included a number of users in Beta testing. As far as I am aware, this did not occur with VS11. None of us were involved. Given that comments by previous Beta testers to Ulead did not often result in changes before a version was released, I cannot say for certain whether the situation might have been different with the released version of VS11 if some of us had been involved in the testing. But I suspect a number of the basic problems would at least have been discovered well before the current version was released, with the possibility of remedial action by Ulead/Corel before VS11 ever hit the streets.

etech6355 · Post by **etech6355** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 12:34 am

Jerry,
Don't know if you've tried the latest version of Nero 7 Ultra Edition Enhanced (latest update that supports avchd importing, editing and avchd disk creation). You can import your AVCHD disk, edit the videos, create a AVCHD disk with menus, sub-menus, chapters. Very similar to dvd navigation.
Thing is you have to setup Nero properly (fielding and all). Instead of using automatic I made many settings manually.
I've been using 12000kbs 1440x1080i UFF with quality=high (h264).
I'm impressed how Nero is compressing the HC3 hd-mpeg2 video (25000kbs) to the H264 codec (dolby 2/0-5.1, pcm audio). My hd-mpeg2 videos put onto avchd disk(h264) are very acceptable, motion is not bad at all. Pretty cool because I can get alot more of HD on a single sided dvd now.
Nero Showtime will play these avchd disks. I have Nero showtime setup for no-deinterlacing because my ati-x1650 performs de-interlacing via hardware (automatic setting).
I would check it out. You can't always import the avchd disk that Nero created back into Nero again to get the actual H264 videos.

BTW- These avchd disks that Nero produces play in my Blu-Ray Player.
Converting the avchd(h264) videos to hd-mpeg2 for editing is blaa, only found one program that actually does this conversion correctly and it's expensive.

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:06 am

Ken,

I see the following:

1. DV
2. MPEG
3. VCD
4. SVCD
5. DVD

Yes, it has changed from the earlier version.

There is one improvement.

It supports digital TV capture from my DVICO Fusion ATSC USB 2.0 receiver.

Etech,

Thanks for the tip on Nero.

I'm going to do some more experimentation with the Pinnacle Studio Ultimate software, too.

It's supposed to support "minimal rendering" of MPEG source files, but I can't seem to get it working correctly; it seems to want to re-encode every single frame.

And it's slower than cream rising when it does that.

Maybe I'll figure it out a little better with some further study.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Ken Berry wrote:With VS11, you can have any capture plug-in your like, as long as it's "IVI capture component". Nothing else shows.

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:50 am

Jerry -- where exactly did you see that list? I was talking about Tools > Change Capture Plug-in, and I have just checked again. Selecting that brings up a screen which only shows 'IVI Capture Component' and nothing else.

Sektionschef · Post by **Sektionschef** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:24 am

Hi Guys

I am pretty sure that VS11 still uses the mainconcept encoder for mpeg2.
The distortions look completely identically in VS9,VS10,MSP8 and VS11.
If VS11 would use a different mpeg2 encoder then it is unlikely that the fault picture is exactly the same than in the older versions.

@Ken, what is the best way to report this bug to Ulead?
Do you or the other moderators/experts have better connections to Ulead's R&D department????
Would it make sense to make this thread sticky that other users can save the time investigating this problem(it has cost me a lot of time to figure out that this is a bug)?

Regards
Sektionschef

Post by **Ken Berry** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:33 am

Despite my lofty sounding title, I have no direct connections with Ulead/Corel. Hopefully one of the moderators or our Site Admin members will see this and report it.

Jerry Jones · Post by **Jerry Jones** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 6:47 am

Ken,

I click the CAPTURE button.

Then I click the CAPTURE VIDEO button and -- when my DV camcorder is connected via Firewire -- I am then presented with a FORMAT drop-down list that allows me to select "DV" or the other choices I listed in the earlier post.

Now I see that "IVI Capture Component" menu that you referenced earlier.

That's different, for sure.

Jerry Jones
http://www.jonesgroup.net

Ken Berry wrote:Jerry -- where exactly did you see that list? I was talking about Tools > Change Capture Plug-in, and I have just checked again. Selecting that brings up a screen which only shows 'IVI Capture Component' and nothing else.

Sektionschef · Post by **Sektionschef** » Tue Jul 10, 2007 8:05 am

Hi Jerry
I did a lot of investigations in the past concerning smartrendering and this is what I know:
-Pinnacle Studio DOES support mpeg2 smartrendering but only for some certain video formats. I defenitely know that sr works with 720X576 files and it does not work with 704X576 files(which I use).
-I am not sure but Final Cut Pro doesn't support sr at all??? So far I know in general mpeg2 files are a big problem for Apple Computers.
-Magix supports sr but has similar problems than Ulead(they also use a mainconcept encoder!)

However, there is a small hope for you:
Mainconcept offers a mpeg2 plugin for Premiere Pro and Elements that should support smartrendering even for HD(see here: http://www.mainconcept.com/site/consume ... -7862.html).
It is very expensive. I have never tested it, hopfully they have already removed this bug in their own product...

Regards
Sektionschef