buying new camcorder and confused!

url · Post by **url** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:54 pm

I inadvertently, with my fumble fingers posted in the Workshop Forum so I will readdress some of my remaining queries here.

I am looking at purchasing a Panasonic Mini dvd camcorder VDRD 250 which is MPEG 2.

I do understand that the Mini Dv is supposed to be better quality b/c of the compression with the Mini Dvd format, however I was planning on doing it easier than I did with my old Sony Hi 8 recording our children and my editor. The main reason being that my Hauppauge win tv pvr usb 2 conversion of my classic library of vhs tapes to dvd via Ulead Movie Factory 4 is my hobby and consumes the greater part of my time.

I did not plan on starting another hobby with editing camcorder tapes!

I have 3 grandchildren who the parents won't be buying camcorders to record their growing years and so I thought that I would do 30 min quality camcorder mini dvd's, likely 3 and compile them onto a regular 4.75 dvd and give them to my children.
No editing simply making one regular dvd out of 90 min that I record.

But I don't know if this would be classified as editing and I would lose quality? For me it would be a compilation and that is all. But I am not video software savvy and what sounds simple to me...very likely is not and there could be quality loss.

I think there are 1 hr mini dvd's however I am not sure of the quality of these?

The camcorder that I am looking at has DVD Fun Shop and DVD Movie Album 2.0 that comes with it and the camera store knows nothing of the software and so I thought that I would see if Ulead Movie Factory 4 that I already use with my Hauppauge would do what I want to do.
So I thought that I would post here.

My notebook does not have Firewire and I connect via USB 2.0

The whole AVI and MPEG 2 process confuses me, so I thought that I should post and see if Ulead Movie Factory 4 would do a fairly quality job of what I want to do or maybe it won't work at all.

I still have not purchased the camcorder, I am researching my software issues out first so that I understand what is better for me to do.

All comments would be appreciated, thankyou.

heinz-oz · Post by **heinz-oz** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:08 am

I'm sure that MF 4 would do what you want but cannot promise that. I have never used a DVD camcorder and usually advise against it. You are limiting yourself in what you can do with it. Right now, you don't want to edit, fine, go for it. If however, in the future, you would find yourself wanting to edit, hmmm...

From my own experience, I know that one would rarely want to use everything that is on a recording, tape or otherwise. There will be the odd thing that shows someone not in a favourable or desired position, over/under exposed, shaky etc. These days, things like that can easily be eliminated by editing.

Capturing a 60 min tape to the PC, editing out unwanted footage and converting it all to mpeg2 for DVD doesn't take all that long but gives you excellent quality. If you were to do that to a DVD recorded clip, I don't know.

Being only for hobby use, I would not worry about a bit of extra time for the encoding to mpeg, but would opt for ease of use. It's your call.

url · Post by **url** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:14 am

I imagine then I would use the "project" portion of the movie factory on the program and it would do the encoding/decoding.

i upgrade cameras, so i can see myself using this one for probably 2 - 3 years. It is really a venture out into this new world of mpeg/avi for me right now and a need to start taking videos of the grandchildren, new triplets and so I want to try to get started as soon as possible but not make a mistake and not check out the software.

I was looking at the mini dv camcorder and it requires firewire which neither of my new notebooks have, only usb 2.0
Thus this eliminates the Panasonic PVGS300 and so i will be looking to the Panasonic dvd camcorder VDRD250 which comes with some editing software albeit that it is probably at the entry level and that of course is where I am.
So should I ever want to edit i imagine that I could use that software.

For me it is the confusion of encoding and decoding that I don't totally understand even though I have googled it and gone to Links and read.The jargon I will have to go over again so that I understand what I have to do when I plug in a camera into the USB port.

Again all comments appreciated.
Cheers

heinz-oz · Post by **heinz-oz** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:37 am

A firewire add on card for your PC costs peanuts, a wrong decision at this stage is irreversible

Even with a DVD camcorder I don't think that the USB connection is intended for video transfer. Both my digital camcorders, Panasonic DA1 and Panasonic GS400, came with a USB cable. This cable is meant to transfer the still images, that both cameras can take, to the PC.

As I said before, I don't know much about the DVD type camcorders but I know enough about the problems I encounter with mpeg files to stay away from that.

You also said that your hobby is to convert old VHS tapes to DVD. How do you capture those?

I have used a dedicated capture card with mixed results in the past and now use my GS400 to "Pass Through" the analog signal from my VCR, via firewire cable, to my PC with excellent results. Again, I capture to DV-AVI even though my system is fast enough to capture to mpeg. I don't mind the time I lose in rendering the final video to mpeg but appreciate the advantage of being able to edit as much as I want with no loss whatsoever.

I think the gist of this discussion is your percieved advantage of a DVD camcorder because you want to create DVDs with as little as possible fuss. I don't believe that combining a few DVD-RAM disks to a single DVD - or +R disk is smooth sailing either, even if you don't want to edit.

I fail to see the advantage of a DVD camcorder over a MiniDV one and for that reason advise against it. Some people would never drive a FORD but others would not drive anything else.

No, I don't drive a Ford either

Post by **Ron P.** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:09 am

heinz-oz wrote: No, I don't drive a Ford either

I do...

I do however agree with what else Heinz said about DVD camcorders. I still use my ol' Digital 8. I like the idea of DV transfer and editing all I want without worrying about the problems of MPEG editing.

I recently had the opprotunity to get a MiniDV, however since my Digital 8 still works, and the tapes are cheaper, I choose a newer Digital Camera instead. Posted in Imaging Section.

Ron P.

url · Post by **url** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:48 am

When i create my dvd's from the Hauppauge win tv pvr usb 2 it is transferred from this unit first via the Win TV record to "my videos" file and then I use Ulead Movie Factory 4 to create the dvd
as a project.

I have been doing this for almost a year now and no problems and my notebook as I mentioned is connected to my external burner and as well my Hauppauge unit via the USB 2.0 which is all my notebook has and there is no problem with these mpegs.

My BenQ external burner does a great job, no lip sync problems etc. and I use the executable command that BENQ emailed me so that everything I burn is in DVD ROM and therefore plays on all of our some 8 different family members players, from home theatre models to the kids door crasher specials.

This model of Panasonic Mini Dvd VDRD 250 comes only with a USB 2.0, s video and composite video. It has a built in digital still camera which I will never use as i have been an amateur black and white 35 mm fan for the past 15 years and have no interest in digital cameras.

I don't have a firewire connection on my notebook and the camcorder camera store which is a specialty store where I purchase my cameras and upgrade the 35 mm's was clear that I required this for the mini dv to work for the camcorder. He checked with the service dept. from Panasonic.

i hope that this additional info helps, thankyou.

maddrummer3301 · Post by **maddrummer3301** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:54 am

heinz-oz · Post by **heinz-oz** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:06 am

Hi url,

if indeed you are using a laptop, forget what I said about cheap add on cards. The PCMCIA versions are a bit more expensive, still cheaper than a DVD recorder as suggested by MD.

I get the feeling that you really want to use the DVD camcorder and only wanted us to tell you that you are right. Well, we are not saying you are wrong but point out why we would not go that path.

In the end it's up to you and if you are happy with the results you got so far with USB transfer, who am I to tell you it's no good. I can't because I have not used your approach but had a friend of mine who could not get decent quality captured from his Panasonic MiniDV camcorder via USB, only streaming quality good enough for internet use. That was only recently.

During this discussion I have learned another aspect of DVD camcorders that I don't like. Every time you stop the recording, a new file is created. Than again, that's me

sjj1805 · Post by **sjj1805** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:31 am

Only advice I can give is don't try and go for an "All in one" solution.
Our hobby - essentially making DVD's needs to be split up into small manageable parts.

For filming use a Camcorder of whatever style suits you.
High Definition is now out on the market but perhaps currently too expensive for most ordinary - man in the street - people who just want to tape their kids/pets and holidays. You would also (eventually) need a HD TV set to watch the results on. On the other hand professionals are in competition with each other and so most likely need the best to keep their place in the dog eats dog market.

Digital is far better than analogue. When I took a holiday a couple of years ago with two of my friends who also have camcorders, they had upgraded from Hi-8 analogue to digital 8. As is usual when we have a holiday as a group, they pass their tapes to me to do the editing and DVD production.
the moment I saw the quality of their Digital 8 it was only hours before I was down the shops purchasing a digital 8 of my own. It was as though someone had taken a cloth and wiped the mist off the TV screen. The difference between Hi-8 and Digital 8 was tremendous.

Going to Digital also made a significant difference to my editing abilities, it wasn't long before I found myself into the serious world of moving paths, picture in picture effects and all manner of things that although could be done with the analogue footage were not that impressive due to the poorer quality.

I haven't used a DVD camcorder but would have reservations about making what would seem a backward step - editing MPEG files rather than DV(AVI)

For still images get a digital camera, the more megapixels the better.
Old fashioned 35mm film cameras will work out expensive in so much as you have to get things developed and carry several rolls of film everywhere. Then there is the question of getting it onto the computer - many shops now enable you to get your pictures placed onto CD.
the alternative would be to scan them all - very time consuming.

Do not be fooled by the adverts showing that a camcorder can take still images and a digital camera can take movies. They work but they are gimmicks. It is a bit like those mobile phones that take pictures.

For VHS Transfer and Television broadcasts I use a TV card.
My Hauppauge TV card only records in MPEG2 format and so I end up resorting to another software program for editing those items but return to my Ulead programs to author the DVD.

You asked advice about purchasing a Panasonic Mini dvd camcorder VDRD 250 which is MPEG 2.

My personal choice would be to go for a mini DV camcorder (Digital 8 ) so that editing the files in DV (avi) format would be possible.

MovieFactory 4 will work with whichever choice you eventually make.

maddrummer3301 · Post by **maddrummer3301** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:54 pm

url · Post by **url** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:35 pm

Thankyou for this very useful discussion and I have been out again looking and browsing sites and have determined that I do believe the camcorder i will buy is the Panasonic PV-GS300 "mini dv", apart from the mpeg 2 editing issues, the possibility of there being something wrong with the mini dvd used that could ruin the entire contents of the tape is also a major consideration.
I have a better understanding now of the pros and cons of mpeg and mini dvd and originally thought the concept sounded great however upon doing all of this research find that indeed it is not the way to go. Doesn't look to me that this type of media is going to advance, if ever for sometime and so I would be best to go with the mini dv.
The transfer for me would be via usb although I understand that I can get a firewire port inserted on the back of my notebook, that is what I have been told and something that I will look into. (Again I am not tech savvy about something like that).
Initially I will use my usb 2.0 although it was mentioned earlier that this is not really a good idea.
Panasonics Support when I called them said it was possible to do and they supply beginners software with the camcorder so I will likely give it a try.

I would appreciate comments about why the USB use is not the best so that I can better understand why the firewire is better. Panasonic told me the only difference and this was their tech support, was about a 5 min time difference in the process.

Thankyou for all of the great discussion and also if anyone has a comment about the firewire and usb 2.0 I would appreciate it.
I am simply trying to become more knowledgeable with all of these terms. I thank Steve in my other posts for directing me to 2 Links to read and slowly I am grasping this whole new era for me of video editing have spent the dark ages with my last hi 8 Sony which has been in its original box now for some 10 years +.

Best regards.

heinz-oz · Post by **heinz-oz** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:44 pm

I wonder where they take the 5 minutes from? USB 2.0, while often deemed fast enough is not really so. The burst data rate is sufficient but there are too many factors impeding on that. The sustained data rate for firewire is a lot higher and firewire does not yet need to compete with other devices for bandwidth as it would with USB.

I'm sure you will not regret you decision

Good luck

DVDDoug · Post by **DVDDoug** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:25 pm

USB: You may not get the full 720x480 DVD resolution with USB. (Maybe you'll get half that?) With your curent setup, you are transferring pre-compressed MPEG-2 over the USB bus, so you are not sending as much data over the bus.

I don't fully understand the reason for that... You can hook-up an external USB hard drive and you don't get half resolution!!!! I guess the tape doesn't slow-down or pause when the data transfer rate is too slow. ...I wonder if some camcorders can do it????

maddrummer3301 · Post by **maddrummer3301** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 12:44 am

skier-hughes · Post by **skier-hughes** » Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:59 am

Just to add to Maddrummers excellent piece. Some panasonics now use the latest USB2 video drivers, and using the software which comes with the cam to capture works well on a decent pc. Laptops are on the whole slower than pc's, so care may need to be taken to ensure that the laptop is working at it's best.

Be sure to ask that the panasonic does use these drivers and then capture as dv-avi.

If they don't USB capture often ends in an Mpeg file and you'll be exactly back to where you would have been with the dvd camcorder.

USB2 although rated at a higher speed for data transfer than firewire, 480 - 400, USB's highest figure was for burst speed, and not for continuous transfer of data, which firewire would do, so firewire could run at 400 all day long, but USB could only do it for very short periods, which is why they have brought out the USB2 video drivers and also why USB2 capture ended up as an mpeg2 file which didn't take the bandwidth of dv-avi.

A pcmcia firewire card would be great, they are not too expensive these days. This is what you need
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001U ... 23?ie=UTF8

The 5 minutes is utter rubbish.....
Tape transfer is done in real time, so you start the cam and the tape runs for 60 mins and you capture 60 mins of tape, there is no way it can take 65 minutes for USB capture, not unless it takes 5 mins to turn it on and get going in USB mode

We discussed pre-roll in another post, which is normally about 5 seconds

Not sure which links Steve sent you to, but I wrote these with beginners in mind, so hopefully they are easy to understand and not to technical,
http://www.myvideoproblems.com/Tutorial ... rVideo.htm
http://www.myvideoproblems.com/Tutorial ... corder.htm
http://www.myvideoproblems.com/Tutorial ... _files.htm
http://www.myvideoproblems.com/ProblemP ... diting.htm